Yet another question...Does God love the reprobate?

[staythecourse]

Yes God loves the reprobate

"His mercies are new each morning."

 

[A5pointer]

"His mercies are new each morning."

for whom?

 

[staythecourse]

A righteous [man] regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked [are] cruel.

God loves Man tremendously more than beasts. His mercies to reprobates never makes Him cruel.

The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works...The LORD keeps all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.

Some respond to his mercies and others do not.

 

[staythecourse]

There may be an allusion to some favour being shown Satan in the book of Job, where he is permitted to appear with the sons of God, but the nature of this indulgence isn't expanded.

Excellent. Your thinking and mine followed the same course. This passage immediately came to mind, also. God showed mercy to Satan that instant by allowing Him to be in His presence without sending him to Hell that instant.

Also, "Send us into the pigs" delayed Jesus' wrath on them.

The action toward them is patience, one facet of love, in withholding the demons from punishment at that time. Some day He will "strive no longer"

God loves the Elect as a Father loves His Children. God loves the Reprobate as a Creator loves that which He creates. The Creator's love for the created does not extend to salvation.

Well put, too. Love to one is temporal and the love to the other is eternal, Praise be to God!

 

[PresReformed]

Love to one is temporal and the love to the other is eternal, Praise be to God!

If the above statement is true then God is not immutable.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This longsuffering is not described as love, rather God's Word clearly teaches us that he hates the reprobate in the same passage.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[staythecourse]

There is no contradiction and God is constant

He suffers long for those things made for destrucion. He bears with the reprobate and suffers them long. His holding His wrath back for a period is love for that period. It will end. He does not change but His actions do according to His plan which he made beforehand.

Esau's blessings: Happiness on earth. Eternal damnation
Jacob's: Suffering on earth. Eternal bliss.

 

[AV1611]

Does God love the reprobate? If so in what sense? How is it different from His love for the elect? (present Scripture when answering if at all possible) This is something I need to learn and read more about. I appreciate your replies.

I am most likely to be in the minority here but I would simply reply that God in no way whatsoever loves the reprobate and I find no evidence from Scripture to change my mind. Let us recall that "Out of His most free, most just, blameless, and unchangeable good pleasure, God has decreed to leave them in the common misery into which they have by their own fault plunged themselves, and not to give them saving faith and the grace of conversion." (Canons I, 15) Whilst I grant this is infralapsarian note that even this view recognises it is God's "good pleasure" not to save the reprobate. Why is this? Is it because he loves them with an everlasting love? Well if he did "therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." but he does not draw and so we can conclude God does not love them with an everlasting love.

What then about gospel preaching? Does this show that God loves all men? Well not at all;

Scripture

Exodus 4:21 "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

Isaiah 6:9-10 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

Matthew 13:13-15 “Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

2 Corinthians 2:15-16 "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?"

Calvin

"The expression of our Savior, "Many are called, but few are chosen," (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation." (Institutes, 3, 24, 8)

"As the Lord by the efficacy of his calling accomplishes towards his elect the salvation to which he had by his eternal counsel destined them, so he has judgments against the reprobate, by which he executes his counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom he has created for dishonor during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, he at one time deprives of the means of hearing his word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more." (Institutes, 3, 24, 12)

"Nor can it be questioned, that God sends his word to many whose blindness he is pleased to aggravate. For why does he order so many messages to be taken to Pharaoh? Was it because he hoped that he might be softened by the repetition? Nay, before he began he both knew and had foretold the result: "The Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he will not let the people go," (Exod. 4:21). So when he raises up Ezekiel, he forewarns him, "I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me." "Be not afraid of their words." "Thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which has eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not," (Ezek. 2:3, 6; 12:2). Thus he foretells to Jeremiah that the effect of his doctrine would be, "to root out, and pull down, and to destroy," (Jer. 1:10). But the prophecy of Isaiah presses still more closely; for he is thus commissioned by the Lord, "Go and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not, and see ye indeed but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert and be healed," (Isa. 6:9, 10). Here he directs his voice to them, but it is that they may turn a deafer ear; he kindles a light, but it is that they may become more blind; he produces a doctrine, but it is that they may be more stupid; he employs a remedy, but it is that they may not be cured. And John, referring to this prophecy, declares that the Jews could not believe the doctrine of Christ, because this curse from God lay upon them. It is also incontrovertible, that to those whom God is not pleased to illumine, he delivers his doctrine wrapt up in enigmas, so that they may not profit by it, but be given over to greater blindness. Hence our Savior declares that the parables in which he had spoken to the multitude he expounded to the Apostles only, "because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given," (Mt. 13:11)." (Institutes, 3, 24, 13)

“God commands the ears of His people Israel to be stricken by, and filled with, the voice of His prophet. For what end? That their hearts might be touched? Nay; but that they might be hardened! That those who hear might repent? Nay; but that, being already lost, they might doubly perish!…Hence, it is by no means absurd that the doctrine of the truth should, as commanded of God, be spread abroad; though He knows that, in multitudes, it will be without its saving effects.” (Calvin’s Calvinism, pp 173)

So then the gospel is no sign that God loves the reprobate for through it he hardens them and causes a greater damnation for them as he wills!

What then about fruits of the earth? Does God give temporal 'blessings' because he loves the reprobate? I think not.

Psalm 73:1-22 "Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart. But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men. Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment. Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish. They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily. They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth. Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them. And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction. How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors. As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image. Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

Psalm 92:5-8 "O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep. A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this. When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore."

Grace, love &c. is restricted to the Covenant of Grace which is made with the elect alone in Christ.

Further reading
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_89.html

 

[AV1611]

He suffers long for those things made for destrucion. He bears with the reprobate and suffers them long. His holding His wrath back for a period is love for that period. It will end. He does not change but His actions do according to His plan which he made beforehand.

Brother, God is "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) He with holds his judgment upon this wicked and sinful world for the sake of his elect. Once all of them are brought into the church then cometh the end!

 

[CalvinandHodges]

Salvation and not Salvation

Greetings:

AV1611:

All of your quotes from the Scriptures and Calvin are in reference to Salvation. And, thus, I say yea and Amen to them. When it comes to Salvation God hates the reprobate. They have no saving faith in Jesus Christ - without which no one can please God. And, they cannot call upon God as their Heavenly Father.

However, the other side of the coin is that God does show compassion or love for the reprobate as He is their Creator. This is clearly implied in the words of Jesus:

And Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented, Luke 16:25.

The reprobate prosper in this world because this is the only heaven they will ever experience. Their mind is on earthly things, Phil. 3:19, and it is in these earthly things that God gives them in abundance. In giving them what they want God is showing love and compassion for them as their Creator. They receive their good things in this life. And, because they despised the saving love and mercy of God, trampled upon Christ and His people, and considered them foolish, 1 Cor. 2:14, they will all the more be judged and condemned. Even what they have will be taken from them and given to another.

Consider, God requires us to love our enemies. If God did not have some modicum of love for His enemies, Matt. 5:44, then would that mean that God is requiring us to do something that He would not do Himself?

Grace,

-CH

 

[AV1611]

Consider, God requires us to love our enemies. If God did not have some modicum of love for His enemies, Matt. 5:44, then would that mean that God is requiring us to do something that He would not do Himself?

I came across this point from Revd David Silversides and did not buy it from him. The context of "love" is in the parallel in Luke termed kindness and indeed God is kind in giving his enemies what they do not deserve but what is God's underlying reason? To condemn them greater than if he had not. Is this a loving attitude towards them?

God loved his elect, when they were enemies, giving Christ for them. This is the greatest love of all and is restricted to the elect.

Temporal blessings obviously occur yet they are in fact a curse.

 

[CalvinandHodges]

I came across this point from Revd David Silversides and did not buy it from him. The context of "love" is in the parallel in Luke termed kindness and indeed God is kind in giving his enemies what they do not deserve but what is God's underlying reason? To condemn them greater than if he had not. Is this a loving attitude towards them?

God loved his elect, when they were enemies, giving Christ for them. This is the greatest love of all and is restricted to the elect.

Temporal blessings obviously occur yet they are in fact a curse.

Hey:

I find it odd, then, that the Greek word used in Matthew 5:44 is Agapate of which Agape is the root word. This word is everywhere translated "love" in the Bible.

Peace,

-CH

 

[JM]

From Wiki:

Agapē, is one of several Greek words translated into English as love. The word has been used in different ways by a variety of contemporary and ancient sources, including Biblical authors. Many have thought that this word represents divine, unconditional, self-sacrificing, active, volitional, and thoughtful love. Greek philosophers at the time of Plato and other ancient authors used the term to denote love of a spouse or family, or affection for a particular activity, in contrast to philia — an affection that could denote either brotherhood or generally non-sexual affection, and eros, an affection of a sexual nature, usually between two unequal partners. The term agape is rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but was used by the early Christians to refer to the self-sacrificing love of God for humanity, which they were committed to reciprocating and practicing towards God and among one another.

Agape has been expounded on by many Christian writers in a specifically Christian context. Thomas Jay Oord has defined agape as "an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being."


I don't know if it helps or not.

j

 

[AV1611]

Hey:

I find it odd, then, that the Greek word used in Matthew 5:44 is Agapate of which Agape is the root word. This word is everywhere translated "love" in the Bible.

Peace,

-CH

Context determines meaning in my opinion.

 

[JOwen]

As soon as the word "reprobate" is used, the waters are muddied. God does not love the reprobate as such, for reprobation required perfect hatred. But it would be quite appropriate to say that God loves His own image; hence, insofar as men are still the image of God in a broader sense, it is acceptable to speak in a qualified sense of God loving all men without drawing distinctions between elect and reprobate.

and

 

[AV1611]

and

The image of God = knowledge, righteousness and true holiness. Of course God loves all they who have that image. Truth is however the image was lost in the fall but "regained" by recreation/regeneration which is specific to the elect.

 

[KMK]

The image of God = knowledge, righteousness and true holiness. Of course God loves all they who have that image. Truth is however the image was lost in the fall but "regained" by recreation/regeneration which is specific to the elect.

So the image of God was lost completely at the fall? Interesting.

 

[CubsIn07]

The function of the image of God was lost, but not the ontological or structure of the image of God in all men. Genesis 9:6 (Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image) seems to reiterate that all men, believers or not, are still created in the image of God even after the fall.