ABondSlaveofChristJesus
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Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?
Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?
But with a Presbyterian understanding of biblical ecclesiology, is this question even the one to ask? I would say no, but that the real issue is the PCUSA as a whole. And depending on the answer to that question, I think the easiest way to then get at an answer to Tim's question would be to ask what attending a false church would mean for a person's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day.
Originally posted by Craig
Now: would it be sin to attend? Once? Na.
Originally posted by gwine
Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Originally posted by gwine
Are all PC-USA churches fallen?
But with a Presbyterian understanding of biblical ecclesiology, is this question even the one to ask? I would say no, but that the real issue is the PCUSA as a whole. And depending on the answer to that question, I think the easiest way to then get at an answer to Tim's question would be to ask what attending a false church would mean for a person's Sabbath-keeping on that particular Lord's Day.
Perhaps my question made no sense, but I would have thought that if a particular PC-USA church was not apostate then what would be wrong with attending for a season especially if there were no other reformed churches around? But since Craig seems to think there are hardly, hardly, hardly, hardly any good ones, I will withdraw my question.
Originally posted by Cottonball
I see what you mean; a real church should celebrate baptism and the sacrament. Going to a place that doesn't do either of those would be wrong. But doesn't the PCUSA do that? Isn't it Presbyterian?
If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches
Originally posted by webmaster
The PCUSA is apostate. I don't see how a church that officially denies the deity of Christ could be a good place to go to. There has to be a better church somewhere where you live to attend.
Originally posted by gwine
If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches
I guess I had not thought of it that way. So you are saying that even if Sam Spade at First Presbyterian (PC-USA) is a reformed 5 point Calvinist minister, and his congregation is in agreement with him, but they are staying in the PC-USA hoping against hope to change her, that they are a false church? Maybe I am being too melodramatic here, but I would like to believe that it could happen. Such is my naivete.
Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Originally posted by gwine
If the PCUSA is a false church, then all of its congregations are false churches
I guess I had not thought of it that way. So you are saying that even if Sam Spade at First Presbyterian (PC-USA) is a reformed 5 point Calvinist minister, and his congregation is in agreement with him, but they are staying in the PC-USA hoping against hope to change her, that they are a false church? Maybe I am being too melodramatic here, but I would like to believe that it could happen. Such is my naivete.
I think the determining factor would be whether the PCUSA is actually apostate, or merely in serious error. If the latter, I would agree with you on reform - but if it is an apostate institution, then if nothing else would not a body such as your example above essentially be accepting congregationalism for themselves by remaining within it? And even in that situation, the problem is that the PCUSA is not a congregational institution, and hence that particular body would still inevitably be actively and fully identifying themselves with an apostate institution that is not a church.
Classic examples of that important but overlooked distinction are that the Reformers saw it necessary to separate from Rome as a synagogue of Satan, yet the Puritans stayed within the erring Church of England trying to reform it.
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
How is Rome not apostate if the PCUSA is???
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Something that makes this sticky: with the sole exception of the BPC (I believe) the PCUSA has not been officially declared apostate (John Gerstner doesn't count).
Originally posted by fredtgreco
We also have another potential problem: if it is apostate, then their baptisms are not valid. Every one of them. That would put most Presbyterians in the (unusual and uncomfortable) position of denying the baptism performed by a 5 point Calvinist in an evangelical church (they do exist) while allowing that of a Papist who hates the gospel.
Originally posted by fredtgreco
I am also not sure as a matter of fact if the PCUSA can be considered Presbyterian, since they have cast off their creeds and confessions and have essentially congregational polity. They are more analogous to Congregational churches in my mind.
This is a difficult question.
Originally posted by Romans922
Don't think that all PCUSA churches are apostate, that is just ignorant of the situation.
Originally posted by Romans922
Despite what most people have said here, there are some good pcusa churches.
Not all are liberal, some are right on. They just decided to not be separatists (maybe that is a fault), but it just depends on the church.
I know a few PCUSA attenders who are right on. So research the church and see how close they are to a Biblical Church, and how close they are to following the WCF. Don't think that all PCUSA churches are apostate, that is just ignorant of the situation.
Many attest to this, that some PCUSA churches look and act like confessional Presbyterian churches, but then we should ask, then why not just join a confessional denomination?
If someone joins a conservative PCUSA church and find that it is as orthodox as a PCA church, then great, BUT what do they do later, say two or five years down the road?
Something that makes this sticky: with the sole exception of the BPC (I believe) the PCUSA has not been officially declared apostate (John Gerstner doesn't count).
We also have another potential problem: if it is apostate, then their baptisms are not valid. Every one of them. That would put most Presbyterians in the (unusual and uncomfortable) position of denying the baptism performed by a 5 point Calvinist in an evangelical church (they do exist) while allowing that of a Papist who hates the gospel.
I am also not sure as a matter of fact if the PCUSA can be considered Presbyterian, since they have cast off their creeds and confessions and have essentially congregational polity. They are more analogous to Congregational churches in my mind.
This is a difficult question.
Originally posted by gwine
Many attest to this, that some PCUSA churches look and act like confessional Presbyterian churches, but then we should ask, then why not just join a confessional denomination?
I agree completely, but the original question was whether it is a sin to attend a PC-USA church. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that there was no other reformed church around and it was only a temporary situation.
Originally posted by gwine
If someone joins a conservative PCUSA church and find that it is as orthodox as a PCA church, then great, BUT what do they do later, say two or five years down the road?
Which is why we did not join the EFC church in our area. The pastor is reformed (John Piper style) but because it is congregational and, as you say, who knows 5 years from now what the situation would be? Of course you could say the same for the OPC church I belong to now, but at least I have the WCF to back me up.