"Worldliness" and "Separation"

[heartoflesh]

I must admit that I feel convicted when reading older writers when they mention avoiding "worldliness" and maintaining "separation". I'm not really sure how to relate to this in a modern sense-- other than general paradigms, "avoid the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, greed, the love of money, etc"-- which we all know can be conveniently relativized in a "maybe for you, but not for me" kind of way. It seems like today there's a fine line between establishing a standard code of "worldliness" and being a legalist. But it doesn't seem it was that way in the past.

Take old bishop Ryle for instance:

One day you are told of their attending a Bible reading: the next day perhaps you hear of their going to a ball. One day they fast, or go to the Lord's table and receive the sacrament: another day they go to the race course in the morning, and the opera at night. One day they are almost in hysterics under the sermon of some sensational preacher: another day they are weeping over some novel. They are constantly labouring to persuade themselves that to mix a little with worldy people on their own ground does good. Yet in their case it is clear that they do no good, and only get harm.

Holiness, pg. 183

Going to a ball? The racecourse? The opera? Weeping over a novel? It sounds silly to call such things worldliness today, doesn't it? (I would of course grant the racecourse has gambling implications) I can see what he's getting at as far as not being double-minded. Even the most innocent things can be detrimental to us if they compete with the important things, but is there something to be said for "the olden days" having more clear-cut boundaries as to what constituted worldliness? Is there any way for us to "name things" today without being a legalist? Please don't get me wrong-- I am not looking for something to feel in bondage about, or to feel guilty about, but I certainly would like to understand this concept better.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Originally posted by Rick Larson
It seems like today there's a fine line between establishing a standard code of "worldliness" and being a legalist. But it doesn't seem it was that way in the past.

I agree. One of the reasons I left the EFCA - and mainstream evangelicalism in general - was because of their understanding of sin. To them, virtually everything concerning sin is relative. Few things can objectively be called sin... most things are only "sinful" if done with the wrong motive or reason. (Like wearing a bikini out on the beach... a morall nuetral act, unless the person is trying to incite lust or trying to show off.)
I also noticed that though there are a few genuinely legalistic folks out there, by and large most of the people who get labeled as legalists really aren't. They just have principle. You see, many Christians have become so antinomian, relativistic and unprincipled that any time they see a person putting their principles into practice, those Christians just naturally assume that person must be a legalist.

Additionally, I believe that a part of the problem is related to a confusion over definitions. People often use the term "legalism" to refer to an anal retentive focus on the minutia of God's requirements to us while missing the big picture. I'd say that this definition is more appropriately labeled as "pharisaism" (a la Matt 23:23-24). The term legalism has connotation of someone who is somehow trusting in their works to save them. There really aren't many folks like that out there... though there are many pharisaical Christians out there!

 

[Puritanhead]

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. --Romans 12:1-2

The Word of God manifests the totality of sin and how it so easily ensares us and is at the core of our nature as fallible human beings. I hear you... as I've progressed in sanctification I've reflected upon what Christian liberty really means in light of the antinomians maligning this doctrine. While I hear a lot of hue and cry about legalism, from my vantage point, libertinism is a bigger problem amongst avowed believers, new and old. I'm not a discerner of hearts, and like to give every avowed believer the benefit of the doubt. I once rhetorically asked an estranged roommate: "Is grace a license to sin?" To which, I received a tongue-in-cheek retort: "Darn straight!" His humor was a window into his heart... I opted to turn away from such escapades (i.e. partying), and hiding or running away brought social stigmatism from him and his friends. Peer pressure isn't always easy to resist. Grace isn't a license to sin (Rom. 6:1-3). Who says: "Be Holy for I am Holy?" We all need to strive to put on the new man as ambassadors for Christ (Gal. 5). We're not perfect pretenders, we're righteous sinners-- that is sinners saved by grace.

Sometimes sin in our lives becomes invisible to us, because we're not focused on spiritual things or as attentive to the Word as we should be. We can spend too much time in seemingly innocent pursuits (i.e. pursuing entertainment, reading, or milling around with friends.) Sometimes sin is ever present in our lives because we're neglected to do things in our lives-- prayer, Bible study, fellowship, evangelism or being salt and light to the world, and pursuing labors for the kingdom God has put on our heart.

Little things that may have seemed innocent enough--- like watching Comedy Central with friends are profoundly worldly... Hindsight is often 20/20. I try to live by my some ground rules which have strengthened over years... with respect to others on here that like TV, I've kind of eschewed it and reduced the consumption drastically and I pay more attention to the content viewed. I was a TV junkie as a teenager. However, I can find more productive uses for my evenings anyhow. And NO, i am not setting up my own standard of works-righteousness with a list of Do's and Don'ts. While I eschew cursing, I want to try and avoid foolish joking which I have let creep upon me from time to time. Though some think I am a prude. Yeah I know my best righteousnesses are like filthy rags in God's eyes (Isa. 64:6), but the Lord says "Be holy for I am Holy," and we're called to good works as his workmanship (Eph. 2:10). I've got a vast mountain to climb, and a ton of room to grow... as there are no spiritual plateaus.

My father once told me when I was growing up... that whenever we make decisions, we shouldn't make them on the basis of what is the most popular, or what it is the easiest decision, but on the basis of what is right all things considered. I've added the caveat to that point, emanating from where Scripture says anything not of faith is a sin: Can we say our faith compels us to follow a course of action in light of God's Word? That is the question we should ask in the face of a moral dillema. Some decisions are inherently subjective on the surface and we should approach them with much forethought, contemplation and prayer. Sometimes the right decision is a tough decision.

Having said that-- I don't purport to be anything more than a sinner saved by God's grace. My only real righteousness is an alien righteousness imputed to my account. I've been a lot like Simon Peter, the Apostle with the "foot-shaped mouth" more often than not. C.S. Lewis once avowed, "God doesn't love us because we are good, but he makes us good because he loves us."

My little tangent....


[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Puritanhead]

 

[LadyFlynt]

A Challenge....(this includes your wives and children)

TEMPORARILY (say at least a couple of months) avoid all fanciful novels, television, radio, sporting events, music (other than at church), and go to the stores as RARELY as possible (plan for a month and go only when it is HONESTLY a NEED)....oh, and all girls in skirts.

I truely do not expect any of you to take me up on this. I do know that you think it unrealistic. I'm not being legalistic here...but want to show you something.

If you were to do this...and then start integrating back into society, you will be disgusted and in shock...realizing how desensitized we are to things.

We went to this extreme years ago for nearly a year and a half. Coming back we had to adjust slowly. I wouldn't listen to radio for a few months. We did without the tv for several more years (we had done away with it at the beginning of our marriage anyhow), the latest styles shocked me in ways they wouldn't have before, etc.

I think it's good to look at "what if we were isolated and came back"...it's easier to sort the good from the bad, though the old temptation of the familiar eventually becomes a struggle again as you redesensitize. In some ways I myself need to go back to the time that we first came back and see where the line needs to be drawn...I'll admit to laziness on my watch on my part.

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[ChristianasJourney]

I grew up without a tv, didn't have much in the way of novels, never went to sporting events, did listen to Christian music, and of course shopped.

Let me tell you, when you do separate yourself (like tv) and then expose yourself to it again, you see how bad it is for your spiritual and family life (same goes for the computer <gasp>).

However, here's my opinion. You need to do what you're convicted of, and what is right for your family. I'd never try and convince an Amish man to stop living the Amish lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with being conservative, there isn't anything wrong with requiring your family to live a "deprived" lifestyle...There is something wrong when placing those restrictions above what scripture requires and above "loving your neighbor". In essence I think this is what LadyFlynt's signature line indicates. Rules are good, until rules get in the way of doing right, loving your neighbor takes a higher priority than keeping the sabbath, as Jesus pointed out repeatedly.

Also, rules are only as good as the spirit behind them. The pharisees followed the rules (and in themselves the rules sounded pretty good), but their spirit was corrupted.

I feel like I'm just rattling on without really saying what I want to....Just remember, there are a lot of things that are "right to do" that aren't mentioned in the Bible, contrarywise there are a lot of things that "seem right to our eyes" that end up mastering us--including many of our traditions.

 

[heartoflesh]

Hey Ryan,

Dude, that was one of the most right-on posts I've ever read on an internet messageboard. You really hit into some deep spots of my soul with that one.

(all of you have had great replys which I'd love to get to...probably will fall alseep pretty soon though)

It certainly is an art and science (...and something definately to be learned...) to begin to decipher "things that differ", and know what that perfect, good and acceptable will of God in these times. Staying clear of both antinomianism and phariseeism has to be more than a neutral "do nothing"---and we all have to make the call-- whatever it is.

All I know is that I know when something's not right. All of us do. In some instances it really and purely is just our own subjective opinion, perception, whatever.... and there should be absolutely no grounds for consideration that we should ever expect the same opinion from a fellow Christian. And yet, it also seems there would have to be more of a unity-of-thought among Christians regarding how we deal with.....(postmodernist mumbo jumbo??....) and what things are actually "worldy" as opposed to just thinking of sin as internet p0rn. (sorry didn't know I couldn't say that word)

Maybe I'm wrong, and there should be no set standards. I often get amused at the whole alcohol thing. Luther and Calvin loved a good draught, we all know, but Spurgeon would find picking one up most disturbing. Things change with culture. I'd have a hard time convincing my wife she shouldn't wear a bathing suit to the beach. (we probably head down to the local lake 2 times during the summer--and it's strictly a utilitatarian affair of chasing our kids!!) She's modest, and I respect her right to be as cool as I am in 95% Minnesota humidity. But then again, there's women I see there that are not so modest, (and I also consider my own corruptions) and I suddenly can view the matter differently.

My daughters certainly aren't wearing suits like those!! :bigsmile:



I gotta go to bed now-

Sure more to say later-

Peace,

Rick


[Edited on 3-12-2005 by Rick Larson]

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by ChristianasJourney
Let me tell you, when you do separate yourself (like tv) and then expose yourself to it again, you see how bad it is for your spiritual and family life (same goes for the computer <gasp>).

there are a lot of things that are "right to do" that aren't mentioned in the Bible, contrarywise there are a lot of things that "seem right to our eyes" that end up mastering us--including many of our traditions.

This was my point. Thanks, Janice! I wasn't trying to make rules for others, but maybe show how easily we are deceived because we live where things are normative that shouldn't be. TV is not sinful...the trash on it is (however there are times when they have something decent...but what are we considering "decent"? Would God consider it decent?

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by ChristianasJourney
....rules are only as good as the spirit behind them. The pharisees followed the rules (and in themselves the rules sounded pretty good), but their spirit was corrupted.

....Just remember, there are a lot of things that are "right to do" that aren't mentioned in the Bible, contrarywise there are a lot of things that "seem right to our eyes" that end up mastering us--including many of our traditions.

This is sure the truth.

 

[Puritanhead]

bump

I just realized after reading my four-to-five month old post that I've fell into wasting time watching TV... that I traditionally shunned and minimized for a good while... I've also had misplaced priorities... though I have been reading my Bible from time to time. My speech isn't always so edifying even when I add the caveat that I am not cursing. I was overly negative because of my circumstances throughout JUly and August. So, I need to take my own advice. I'm like Simon Peter, the Apostle with the foot-shaped mouth. I cannot say my faith compels me to handle problems by ignoring them... anything not of faith is a sin.

It's a daily battle... we have to die to ourselves daily. God hopefully has opened a door to a new job to provide for my financial needs and school bills. Hebrews 12:1-2

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
If you were to do this...and then start integrating back into society, you will be disgusted and in shock...realizing how desensitized we are to things.

I remember the shock I got after coming back from overseas and trying to fit back into my culture (I know it can be explained away as reverse culture shock but it is a learning experience nevertheless). When I went overseas I was 18 having grown up in the 'tv generation'. I could watch anything and not be freaked out. I had even watch terrorist videos and seen the most disturbing sights. For a mere 5 weeks I was away from western society. For 5 weeks I watch hardly any TV. That TV I did watch was govt. censored and so 'puritanical' even the slightest hint of immorality was censored out.

When I got back to New Zealand I stepped off the plane and instantly I started to see billboards, posters and items in shop windows which send my hair tingling. I started to watch TV and I just felt sick at what I was seeing. I was so disgusted. I was counting references to sex ever 20 seconds or so. There was no escaping it. I began to feel out of place in my own society and anger grew as I saw others around me who did not notice the perversion of it all. Those were a tough few weeks as I readjusted. It took longer for me to readjust than the period I was overseas. Some of my thinking never went back to 'normal'. I hope now the anger has worn off and I am a bit more level headed once more about it

 

[Robin]

Originally posted by ChristianasJourney
I grew up without a tv, didn't have much in the way of novels, never went to sporting events, did listen to Christian music, and of course shopped.

Let me tell you, when you do separate yourself (like tv) and then expose yourself to it again, you see how bad it is for your spiritual and family life (same goes for the computer <gasp>).

However, here's my opinion. You need to do what you're convicted of, and what is right for your family. I'd never try and convince an Amish man to stop living the Amish lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with being conservative, there isn't anything wrong with requiring your family to live a "deprived" lifestyle...There is something wrong when placing those restrictions above what scripture requires and above "loving your neighbor". In essence I think this is what LadyFlynt's signature line indicates. Rules are good, until rules get in the way of doing right, loving your neighbor takes a higher priority than keeping the sabbath, as Jesus pointed out repeatedly.

Also, rules are only as good as the spirit behind them. The pharisees followed the rules (and in themselves the rules sounded pretty good), but their spirit was corrupted.

I feel like I'm just rattling on without really saying what I want to....Just remember, there are a lot of things that are "right to do" that aren't mentioned in the Bible, contrarywise there are a lot of things that "seem right to our eyes" that end up mastering us--including many of our traditions.

Professor Plum!

I'd add (as a music-teacher and writer/performer) the distractions of our culture are insidiously anti-intellectual/creative. My students would rather go to Disneyland than practice at creating their own expressions of art (music.) Their heads, being so full of consumeristic ideas, when they encounter my lesson plans it takes quite a while to "snap out of" the mental fog.

Humans are creator/reflectors naturally. This is part of what it means to be made in the Image of God. The challenge in our time and place is to take-back the splendid attributes God gave us; honor God by pursuing those activities that bring beauty; wisdom; and truth to the culture --- for His Glory! (I'm not talking about Christian-music.)

Any of the arts and crafts in God's good creation will do!

Our minds are gifts from God......



Robin