Why did God create to begin with?

[InSlaveryToChrist]

You heard the argument. This question is very common among unbelievers, yet easy to answer. Nevertheless, I rarely find any well-known Christian author giving this particular response, "Because God deserved it." Rather the answer is usually a literally biblical one, "God created all things for His own glory." I don't find that a satisfying answer because people often struggle with the definition of 'glory'. Thus, I suggest simply using the solution I myself concluded, that is, "God looked at Himself and dealed with Himself righteously. The result: creation."

Opinions?

 

[au5t1n]

They don't understand "glory," but they do understand your use of "righteously"?

 

[Andres]

You heard the argument. This question is very common among unbelievers, yet easy to answer. Nevertheless, I rarely find any well-known Christian author giving this particular response, "Because God deserved it." Rather the answer is usually a literally biblical one, "God created all things for His own glory." I don't find that a satisfying answer because people often struggle with the definition of 'glory'. Thus, I suggest simply using the solution I myself concluded, that is, "God looked at Himself and dealed with Himself righteously. The result: creation."

Opinions?

You don't find the bible to be satisfying so you would rather make up your own answers? I think you would be wiser to stick with scripture. It has a bit more authority than you.

 

[VictorBravo]

Another group of men tried to answer such questions. One of them ended up saying,

therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

And he ended by noting his proper place when questioning why God does anything:

Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

(Job 42:3,6)

I suggest whenever we think we have a special insight into God's ways, we should go back and read the entire book of Job, with particular attention paid to Chapters 38 through 41.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Another group of men tried to answer such questions. One of them ended up saying,

therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

And he ended by noting his proper place when questioning why God does anything:

Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

(Job 42:3,6)

I suggest whenever we think we have a special insight into God's ways, we should go back and read the entire book of Job, with particular attention paid to Chapters 38 through 41.

Thank you for your advice! I highly appreciate it!

---------- Post added at 07:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------

They don't understand "glory," but they do understand your use of "righteously"?

Well, I do admit people are so out of logic today that it's even hard to get a good definition of 'right' and 'wrong'. 'Glory', however, is more of a biblical term and even many Christians get the meaning wrong.

---------- Post added at 07:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 AM ----------

You heard the argument. This question is very common among unbelievers, yet easy to answer. Nevertheless, I rarely find any well-known Christian author giving this particular response, "Because God deserved it." Rather the answer is usually a literally biblical one, "God created all things for His own glory." I don't find that a satisfying answer because people often struggle with the definition of 'glory'. Thus, I suggest simply using the solution I myself concluded, that is, "God looked at Himself and dealed with Himself righteously. The result: creation."

Opinions?

You don't find the bible to be satisfying so you would rather make up your own answers? I think you would be wiser to stick with scripture. It has a bit more authority than you.

What I don't find satisfying is the hard language of the Bible, which is by no means God's fault, but the translators. I agree with what you say about sticking with Scripture, and I embrace the doctrine of sola scriptura, however, in the early manuscripts alone, and this is where, I think, our opinions depart. The Bible has an absolute authority in my life, nevertheless, I am not going to submit my life to some fallible translators, who make fallible decisions and end up with very complex words, only explainable by using the Hebrew alphabet and by considering the Hebrew culture.

Maybe I shouldn't have distinguished my logical way of explaining the case for the existence of creation from the biblical terminology, but rather show how those both agree with each other. "God did all things for His own glory." Why? "Because He's worthy."

 

[Peairtach]

God has no higher or more proper thing that He can do, with respect to His creation, than glorify Himself. Not that He needed to. If He needed to He would be Himself dependent on the creation. But He wanted to create and through that means glorify Himself. So in His infinite wisdom He did.

He also wanted (but didn't need to) to become eternally God and Man. E.g. :

Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth; and my delights were with the sons of men (Prov 8:31)

And that couldn't happen without the Creation.


Samuel

Why? "Because He's worthy."

Also because He's wise. And sometimes or often, like Job, we can't fathom the wisdom of what He's doing in our lives or in the world generally. To the unbeliever the whole Gospel scheme itself is foolishness.

Quote from Samuel

"God created all things for His own glory."

I think this expression can be "unpacked" biblically, as I've tried partially to do above. E.g. Did God need to create for His own glory or did He only want to create for His own glory?

Unpacking or explaining , "God created all things for His own glory", in a biblical way, won't satisfy someone who is unconverted, but the Spirit may use what you say to lead to a person's conversion.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

A common misconception in regards to "God created all things for His own glory" is "Was God, then, in lack of glory?" Of course, this can be easily explained, "None can add to God's glory. That 'God created all things for His own glory' means God created all things so that His glory, His holiness, His excellencies would be made known." But a following question would be, "Why was it not enough for God to make His own glory known to Himself?" It, indeed, is not about what God is obligated to do in order to satisfy His own pleasure, but rather what God deserves as a perfect and holy being. God not only judges His creation, but also Himself.

 

[VictorBravo]

It, indeed, is not about what God is obligated to do in order to satisfy His own pleasure, but rather what God deserves as a perfect and holy being. God not only judges His creation, but also Himself.

This introduces confusion. You grant on one hand that God is not obligated to do anything, and yet state that God "deserves" creation. You seem to understand the implications of the word "deserve": it requires judgment based upon some sort of standard. Your statement that God judges himself implies that there is a standard (independent of God himself) that God uses to judge himself. That is contrary to both the Westminster Confession and the London Baptist Confession.

I notice that you do not have a confessional subscription stated in your profile. Normally members on the PuritanBoard are required to adhere to one of the historic confessions as stated on the board rules page. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Confessional view of God, but I strongly urge you to review it. I set out an excerpt of chapter 2 of the Westminster Confession below:

I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

Please note that God does not need creation, nor does God derive glory from creation. Creation is in no sense the appropriate reward for God being God because the notion of "reward" (or deserves) implies something independent of God evaluating what is appropriate for God.

The other problem I have with the term "deserve" is stylistic. We have advertising slogans that say things like "you deserve a vacation" or "you deserve a break today (at McDonald's)." On what basis are these advertisers saying we deserve such things? Generally, it is on the implied basis that we are worth indulging. The term "deserve" has devolved into some sort of post-modern statement of inherent goodness of people. To apply it to God in a similar fashion trivializes our sovereign God. It sounds like an advertisement:

"I'm so good, I deserve a hamburger. God is so much more good, he deserves creation. . . ."(implicit thought: so isn't it wonderful that he can have it. . . and am I not wonderful to be able to discern God's appropriate deserts).

 

[KaphLamedh]

You didn´t ask very easy question to answer.
I have to say that I don´t know other answer than the one you mentioned.
God created for His own reasons. I think we as born again christians don´t need to ask God "why", because here on earth we won´t get all answers. As for unbelievers is more important to preach the Gospel than to start argue with unbelievers on topics that are difficult even with believers. Almost every time it leads to nowhere to argue on Bible or God with unbelievers.

 

[Jared]

I was talking to some people on another forum about this. Part of the answer that I gave is the way that Edwards talked about the trinity and their mutual love and affection for each other and how that it was so great that it couldn't be contained, so the love overflowed in creation and redemption.

One man actually argued that not only was there nothing outside of God that motivated Him to create man (which I totally agree with), but neither was there anything within Him that motivated Him to create man. I disagree with this. First of all, if there was nothing within Himself motivating Him to create man, then what would have been His motivation? Where else would He have found any motivation if not from within Himself, since we know that there was nothing outside of God that constrained Him to create man.

Also, I believe that God's delight in being God, God's pursuit of His glory, and God's love (especially when we consider that God's love finds its highest expression in His love for Himself) are all related. Here's how I would work this out: God delights in being God. This means that God loves Himself. Since God loves Himself, He pursues His own glory. In His pursuit of His own glory, we see His love for us, because He wants to give us, His creatures, the gift of Himself. To put it in the words of the answer to the first question of the Westminster Shorter Catechism, man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.

Does anyone have a problem with this? Have I left anything out?

 

[py3ak]

I was talking to some people on another forum about this.

Anyone in fellowship with other fora, is not in fellowship with us.

 

[Calvin87]

In regards to the original thread posted by our brother Samual. This is one of the most common questions that I am asked by people who are typically unreformed. However I would like to stress that this does not depreciate one who holds to our reformation, as this it is a logical question. And to be honest, as far as scripture is concerned there is no direct and final reference as to why GOD created the earth to begin with. Scholars and theologians have been seeking a scriptural answers for thousands of years. But as I thought about your question I couldn't help but think of a the main theme of the scriptures, salvation. We are told by the Apostle Paul in the great letter to the Ephesians that Salvation and adoption as children of Jesus Christ, "is according to the Good pleasure of His will, and to the praise and glory of His grace[/I] (Eph. 1:5-6). And also in Verse 11, "Being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the council of his will."

Since the Apostle Paul is so clear that he works all things after the council of his will, we are forced to perceive the word "All" as it pertains to the whole of the creation. Thus, we are left with only one logical answer that begins to paint a picture which we cannot understand through the nature of this broken flesh. He did it because it pleased him.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Furthermore, we should note that the end or goal of Creation is Redemption. When we ask, "why creation?" we should not say "For God's glory" and leave that "glory" without content or partially filled, or at all exclusive of Christological redemption. God's glory is most fully revealed in Christ, and his glory is most appreciated (whether by angels or men) in Him saving sinners.

Creation must be seen as the stage on which God reveals himself--not only as the All-wise and All-powerful Creator, but the Gracious and Merciful Savior. Because there is Redemption, there is also a fuller and most complete exhibition of the Wrath of God, whether upon the Christ-Sacrifice, or upon the wicked and unrepentant.

Everything serves Christ and Redemption, 1Cor.15:28, who is the image and glory of God.