Did God create a perfect universe?

[Timmay]

Had a discussion yesterday about God’s creation of the universe. A fellow believer said God did not create the universe perfect, but rather good, as described in Genesis. He said how could this universe be perfect if man had the ability or even the possibility of falling. He said that possibility and ability will be non existent in heaven and in the new earth. Thus, then the universe will be perfect.

My response was, if God intended a universe with a fall, is that universe not perfect because it is what God wanted? Can a perfect being even create something imperfect?

We didn’t have time to hammer out our definitions but he seems mean that “perfect” would imply a world without moral evil, and I mean that “perfect” is whatever God creates and ordains.

(Just to be clear I affirm God is not the author of sin)

Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pergamum]

If the redeemed universe will be better than the original universe (with the unfallen Adam in the Garden who had the possibility of falling), then how can the previous one be perfect if it can be improved upon?

 

[TylerRay]

Had a discussion yesterday about God’s creation of the universe. A fellow believer said God did not create the universe perfect, but rather good, as described in Genesis. He said how could this universe be perfect if man had the ability or even the possibility of falling. He said that possibility and ability will be non existent in heaven and in the new earth. Thus, then the universe will be perfect.

My response was, if God intended a universe with a fall, is that universe not perfect because it is what God wanted? Can a perfect being even create something imperfect?

We didn’t have time to hammer out our definitions but he seems mean that “perfect” would imply a world without moral evil, and I mean that “perfect” is whatever God creates and ordains.

(Just to be clear I affirm God is not the author of sin)

Any thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Perfect" can be defined several ways. The universe was perfect, insofar as there was no blemish in it.

It should be remembered that God's act of creation was an execution of his decree, his eternal purpose, and this had in view not only the beginning of creation, but its end as well. God's world, at the end, will be perfect insofar as it will glorify God as creator of the world, the judge of sin, and the redeemer of the elect. If the glory of God is the greatest good (which it is), and God can be glorified more by showing his wrath toward sin and his grace toward the elect (a la Romans 9), than he can in a world which only knows him as creator, then the universe that God created (in which free moral agents could choose to sin) is more perfect than any universe he chose not to create (such as one in which there are no free moral agents, which your friend prefers).

 

[Dachaser]

If the redeemed universe will be better than the original universe (with the unfallen Adam in the Garden who had the possibility of falling), then how can the previous one be perfect if it can be improved upon?

Redeemed humans once glorified will be superior to even Adam when God created him.

 

[Pergamum]

Redeemed humans once glorified will be superior to even Adam when God created him.

So God did not create the universe perfect.

I've read some theologians describe Adam as "perfect, but mutable" - would that make more sense? Though mutability seems to denote imperfection.

 

[Dachaser]

So God did not create the universe perfect.

I've read some theologians describe Adam as "perfect, but mutable" - would that make more sense? Though mutability seems to denote imperfection.

God Himself said that it was very good.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

This is a very loaded question with multiple answers depending on the perspective. Perfect generally means something being as good as it can possibly be. God does everything that is best always, so in that sense you could say yes that is perfection. From a different perspective, creation including a serpent demonizing Adam and Eve surely could have been better, and wasn't perfect in such a sense. But it was perfect in the sense that God was using that to bring about the best possible, which includes redemption.

 

[OPC'n]

God said all that he created was good, not perfect. Adam and Eve were good in that they were sinless, but they could not have been perfect for they did sin. We either have to give perfection a different definition thus redefining God or we have to take what God said about his creation as truth. God wasn't obliged to give to his creation the virtue of perfection in order for it to be good and to keep Adam and Eve from choosing to sin. Had they been perfect they would have never sinned. Creation came from God and thus it was good/flawless thus without sin. But God never made creation perfect as he himself is perfect and incapable of sinning. Jesus was good and showed his perfection in that while tempted he did not sin.