Who Is Ethnic Israel?

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by KMK, Apr 7, 2008.

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  1. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    For those who believe in a future 'mass conversion' of ethnic Israel, who constitutes 'ethnic Israel'?

    Anyone who is a descendant of Jacob?
    Anyone who practices Judaism?
    Anyone who happens to be living in what is now called the nation of Israel?
    A combination of these or others?
     
  2. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    probably just the top as the refrences commonly used for widespread denote 12,000 from each tribe. there are some folk who have no known Jewish ancestry that convert.. but in what the folk refrence it would be decendants(maybe just the decendants who "still hold true")
     
  3. Wannabee

    Wannabee Obi Wan Kenobi

    Decendants of Jacob.
     
  4. PastorTim

    PastorTim Puritan Board Freshman

  5. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    Why does it matter to us today or in the future?
     
  6. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    It appears from this article that you see no future 'mass conversion' of ethnic Israel. The OP was directed at those who do see such a conversion.
     
  7. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    Would this be true even of descendants of Jacob who practice Buddhism or Hinduism, for example?

    And what of those proselytes who are not descended from Jacob?

    Also, since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, can any Jew truly trace their geneology back to Jacob? (I know some claim they can)
     
  8. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    This is the question I am trying to answer in my own mind.

    Are you saying that you believe there will be a future 'mass conversion' of ethnic Israel but that it doesn't matter to us today, nor will it matter in the future?
     
  9. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    yes I would argue that they can. for instance the Tribes of Levi and Judah are still around. I know some of them indirectly.
    how do they know this? all who claimed to be Levi took a DNA test, 98% had a common marker or something//. the records were not only stored in the temple.

    but that is how they would say they know
     
  10. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    Rom 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved..."

    This must be the same 'Israel' as mentioned in vs 25 "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel."

    This is the same 'Israel' from 9:3,4,5 "...my kinsman according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenents, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers..."

    From this I would conclude that those who believe in a future 'mass conversion' of ethnic Israel believe that the Israel that shall be converted are the fleshly descendants of Jacob who are still within the covenant. Would Paul consider a fleshly descendent of Jacob who has apostacized from the covenant to be a part of 'Israel'?
     
  11. holyfool33

    holyfool33 Puritan Board Freshman

    Ethenc Ireal would be defined as as those who have been judically blinded by God who are curentlly jewish either relgious or not and will be either converted or danmed during The 7 year Tribulatioun:2cents:
     
  12. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    The only operative covenant today is the new covenant. The old covenant was decaying and ready to pass away when Hebrews was written (8:13). The final collapse happened in AD70.

    Biblical (old covenant) Judaism gave way to two religions, Christianity and rabbinic Judaism. Jews operating under the terms of the new covenant are called Christians.

    Paul wrote Romans 9-11 during a time with it was still possible to be a Jew per old covenant terms. Those conditions no longer exist today. During that time ‘Israel’ still existed, at least theoretically. Even though the dead of Christ ended the sacrificial system when the curtain of the Temple was torn from top to bottom, the Jewish powers caused the system to continue to limp along for another 40 years.

    So the legitimate question is; does Israel exist today?
     
  13. KMK

    KMK Moderator Staff Member

    I understand your POV. You would probably agree with those who say that the fulness of the Gentiles has already come.

    I had directed my question specifically to those who believe there is a future mass conversion for 'Israel'. (Whatever that means) Personally I lean in your direction. I can't see how and ethnic 'Israel' exists today according to its biblical definition.
     
  14. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    It happened already-the remnant that had their eyes opened before the attack of the Romans and fled before the destruction.
     
  15. Anton Bruckner

    Anton Bruckner Puritan Board Professor

    before and after the attack as per revelation. "They will come and worship at your feet".
     
  16. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    Start :offtopic:today Christian is a universal term to beilevers in Jesus.

    I know a few orthodox Jews who see no disconnect between the way their people have lived for thousands of years and the Gospels. They do no accept the title of Christian nor do they hold to the writings of Paul (some do some dont) Generally their canon would be this

    Genesis- Malachi
    the 4 gospels, and the writings of the 12 apostles that Jesus chose in Human form while on earth (those in the Gospels)

    Rabbi Simcha Pearlmutter is one such Jew.

    Eusibies also rails against "Nazarenes" who still have a copy of matthew in Hebrew.

    surprisingly enough, I find Messianic Jews, much more easy to get along with in regards to covenant and generally reformed theology. They get the title "legalist" just as much as a puritan like me does :lol:

    they affirm the Deity of Jesus, accept him as Lord, they do not use "trinity" because the term is not found in Scripture, but they beileve the same as "Trinitarians" End :offtopic:

    all that to say, while it was at Antioch where they were called Christians, It doesnt mean they were called that in Jerusalem. So while history has run its course, i find no problem with folk who are cautios of using "Christian"
     
  17. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    I dont follow the "mass conversion". I tend to be more of the beilef that "Israel=church, church = israel"
     
  18. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    :offtopic:

    In case of Rapture, this keyboard will be unmanned.
     
  19. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    :lol:

    thats okay, Im sure the pope will come steal it and then use it to take control as the Antichrist.
     
  20. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    That's a good question. Those who have been absorbed into the Jewish community are now Jews, like Rabab and Ruth's descendents became Jews, like Christ Himself. Studies of European Jews suggest about 5% per century inbreeding, which is why you get differences in coloring etc.. between them and Sephardic Jews.

    The tricky parts are when there was mass conversion by non-Jewish people. People like the Karait Jews seem to have been of Turkic stock. So what of them? They've got the religion, but not the genes. In fact several hundred were allowed to join the Waffen SS during WW2 and allowed to practice their religion, as the nazi's saw Jews in ethnic terms primarily rather than religious.

    The so-called "Cohen gene" was referred to already in this thread. There are several modern studies, and I can dig some out if you wish, but the answer is pretty clear that for the most part, those who call themselves Jews are descendants of Jacob.
     
  21. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

  22. Grymir

    Grymir Puritan Board Graduate

    The Ethnic Israel has to do with lineage and their mothers, I believe. When Temple was destroyed, so were the records. But some Jews today can trace their lineage back along way. God knows who they are. It became a problem with the establishment of Israel. Before that, converts were not common ( to Judaism), who would want to be persecuted the way they were? So todays definition has changed a little. The Mother thingy.
     
  23. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    (not really debateable- easily seen in scripture)
    1) There was the "master copy of the Torah" in the ark
    the king, made himself another copy
    and every tribe had its own copy.

    so there were at;east 14 manuscripts.
    (debatable maybe, based off of info a few Orthodox rabbi friends sent me)
    2) No, they weren't all destroyed. the tribes more than likely also kept there genealogies with them. this would make more since, than having them kept in Jerusalem- what if AJ and Joey were fighting that they deserved the inheritance- should they have to travel every time down to Jerusalem?? Its very likely that Genealogies and such were kept by individual tribes and levite cities throughout the land. though a good bit was destroyed with the temple, the modern claims are not "silly conspiracy or conjectures"
     
  24. ModernPuritan?

    ModernPuritan? Puritan Board Freshman

    you are right about the mothers...

    tribal affiliations by Father. (According to Numbers?)

    Religon by mother (not sure when or where- its Talmudic)

    hence, according to Jewish Halacha If my mother was ever Jewish in religion, or if her mother, etc.. was then I am a jew or something...
     
  25. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    I don’t think that spurious converts to rabbinic Judaism over the centuries would qualify, so the physical descendents of Jacob sounds like the right answer for those who believe is a future mass conversion of ethnic Israel, but how much of Jacob’s blood does a person need to have flowing through their veins to fit into that category?

    Of course you still have the problem that many Jews prior to the time of Christ were not in fact physical descendents of Jacob. Anyone who came into the nation and was circumcised and kept the law was considered a Jew. After a few generations their decedents were indistinguishable from the rest. So the definition of "who is a Jew" has always been by covenant faithfulness, rather than strictly by physical lineage.

    The Jews, like the Christians, were purposely scattered among the nations by God’s divine plan in the early centuries. So conditions like destruction of records, intermarriage, change of rules from patrilineal to matrilineal reckoning, etc have all contributed to blotting out the vestiges of physical lineage, and have strengthened in idea that salvation is not be genetics but what really matters is being a spiritual child of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:28,29).
     
  26. Kevin

    Kevin Puritan Board Doctor

    The Irish!:rolleyes:
     
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