Toronto Blessing and Third Wave

[Quickened]

I've tried to do some searching since i have been involved with a discussion with the "happenings" at Toronto and similar events.

The happenings are usually similar in each account.
- "Holy Laughter"
- "slain in the spirit"
- jerking and convulsing on the floor
- Animal noises (often barking or lions roaring)

along with a host of other things.

I guess specifically I was wondering how these things tie in to the occult (if infact they do). I thought i remember reading at one time that there were some world religions that have practices that have the same outcome.

It seems they are entertaining spirits but not that of God. I would be interested in some more indepth discussion.

 

[Romans 9:16]

I used to live in Toronto. On one occasion I decided to go check out the ‘Airport Church,’ which is the location of the so-called ‘Toronto Blessing.’ I saw a bunch of people yelping and jumping around like rabid cats. My favorite moment came when the ‘speaker,’ (in between yelps, hiccups, and jumps) quoted the only scripture of the service. This is what he said: “It is like when David said ‘my soul doth magnify the Lord.’” I found this hilarious because, of course, David never said that; Mary did. The only Bible in the whole circus of a service was a misquote! The charismatic movement is success story for Satan. One more way of ensuring people know nothing of scripture and everything of nothing.

 

[kceaster]

Brian...

Although there could be diabolical actions surrounding these phenomena, man, in general, is an actor. I know this is particularly true of those who speak in tongues. It can be practiced and perfected. If you do nothing but syllabolize consonants and vowels into some semblance of sounding like a language, you could probably fool alot of people.

Someone once prayed over my wife and suggested to her how she would start to speak in a tongue. "Just repeat these words..."

I think some people caught up in this just want to have an experience and want to show themselves as having the Spirit in a way that would be evident to those around them. But the Bible tells us how the Spirit is manifested in believers today.

And what did Paul say? He would rather speak intelligible words than in a tongue because it would be more edifying to all.

What this points to is not necessarily demonic activity, but the want of the means of grace. And I would direct that to believers who recognize their need of a savior, but remain ignorant as to what the relationship with the savior really entails. It entails peace, quietness of spirit, order, reserve, reverence, pure joy. Those are the things true believers seek.

But those who, like Simon the magician, seek for signs and manifestations of the Spirit, for the mystical, superstitious, and supernatural things of the Spirit, they often have to put it on, so to speak. And they really do open themselves up for true demonic activity, if it may be so called.

True believers will seek the means of grace, false believers will seek any other external means. The Spirit draws true sheep to Christ, and they hear His voice. The spirit of the world draws those who would be sheep towards any other voice than Christ, yet whispering in the ear, "Here is the Christ." He presents himself as an angel of light and leads those who are already deceived or ignorant into even more deception and darkness of heart.

But in the end, if the means of grace are deserted, other means will be propped up to take their place. And it is sad that these "devotees" to such things have to grope around in the dark for crumbs of spiritual truth, when all along, the truth is there. And in that truth they would find peace and solace. But unless the Spirit intervenes, they will continue to follow the angel of light towards their own destruction.

In Christ,

KC

 

[lynnie]

John Wimber at one point made the comment that 10 years earlier they would have cast demons out of people manifesting the symptoms at Toronto, and now the pastors were saying it was the Holy Spirit. Not long after, Toronto was kicked out of the Vineyard denomination for unscriptural teaching and practice. Its a bit of a slanderous accusation to equate them with the entire charismatic movement. Plenty of charismatics (continuists) here at PB who certainly would not support any of the third wave garbage.

Regarding the question if it is entertaining evil spirits or not, there were many reports back then that led to a pretty clear conclusion of demon activity in some cases. Other seemed like hyped up people in frenzied mob hysteria-the deceived fallen flesh. Hard to tell what is sin and what is demons but that movement has plenty of both.

I have an old friend (well, used to have, don't get along so great now ) who has gone into the third wave big prophetic movement. The leaders are now having the patriarchs, Jeremiah, even Jesus, come to them from heaven (Mt of transfiguration type repeats is their doctrinal basis) and give them end time prophetic revelation foretelling the future, and revealing deeper truths of scripture that us common folks never understood yet. They usually appear as tall and regal, emanating light. They have a global folowing of millions. When you hear somebody describe the conferences, like talking with my old friend, it is a total creep out, and I can guarantee you it is more than just flesh. Big level demonic principalities are at work with deception and they have millions of charismatics groveling at their prophetic greatness.

It says in Matthew that the wise man brings out of his storehouse treasures old and new. "The bible is old treasure and the end time prophets are new treasure." With some, Calvinism is evil and responsible for amillennial doctrine which is responsible for anti semitism and the holocaust. "Replacement theology" ( Reformed covenantal theology) is from the pit of hell and dispensationalism is really big. One big guy who gets regular visits from "the patriarchs" does huge conferences in Jerusalem.

I can't begin to tell you how sickening it is when you find out more about this stuff and watch people get sucked into it. Leviathan is king over all the sons of pride, and under it all is pride- they are all on a higher level than us scripture only bottom feeders.

 

[Quickened]

Kevin

I agree that people often put on a front in churches. Especially ones where the general idea is that if you display fruits of the spirit then you are not saved. So you will often have people trying to create some essence of glossolalia to show they have "the spirit"

I do agree there are people that pretend to fit in. There have been many accounts where people wanted to do something else but could not due to their experience. For example some woman writhing around on the floor, laughing uncontrollably merely wanted to get up and go back to her seat and when struggling someone would "lay hands" and say something that made her experience continue and amplify.

It was something that was against her will. Similar events are what prompted my question. There is something involved here (not in 100% of cases) that is driving people away from Christ to "experiences" that are totally unbiblical in all forms of the sense. When these things happen against the will of an individual then I am led to believe there are outside circumstances that are the cause.

 

[KMK]

I used to live in Toronto. On one occasion I decided to go check out the ‘Airport Church,’ which is the location of the so-called ‘Toronto Blessing.’ I saw a bunch of people yelping and jumping around like rabid cats. My favorite moment came when the ‘speaker,’ (in between yelps, hiccups, and jumps) quoted the only scripture of the service. This is what he said: “It is like when David said ‘my soul doth magnify the Lord.’” I found this hilarious because, of course, David never said that; Mary did. The only Bible in the whole circus of a service was a misquote! The charismatic movement is success story for Satan. One more way of ensuring people know nothing of scripture and everything of nothing.

John Wimber at one point made the comment that 10 years earlier they would have cast demons out of people manifesting the symptoms at Toronto, and now the pastors were saying it was the Holy Spirit. Not long after, Toronto was kicked out of the Vineyard denomination for unscriptural teaching and practice. Its a bit of a slanderous accusation to equate them with the entire charismatic movement. Plenty of charismatics (continuists) here at PB who certainly would not support any of the third wave garbage.

Regarding the question if it is entertaining evil spirits or not, there were many reports back then that led to a pretty clear conclusion of demon activity in some cases. Other seemed like hyped up people in frenzied mob hysteria-the deceived fallen flesh. Hard to tell what is sin and what is demons but that movement has plenty of both.

I have an old friend (well, used to have, don't get along so great now ) who has gone into the third wave big prophetic movement. The leaders are now having the patriarchs, Jeremiah, even Jesus, come to them from heaven (Mt of transfiguration type repeats is their doctrinal basis) and give them end time prophetic revelation foretelling the future, and revealing deeper truths of scripture that us common folks never understood yet. They usually appear as tall and regal, emanating light. They have a global folowing of millions. When you hear somebody describe the conferences, like talking with my old friend, it is a total creep out, and I can guarantee you it is more than just flesh. Big level demonic principalities are at work with deception and they have millions of charismatics groveling at their prophetic greatness.

It says in Matthew that the wise man brings out of his storehouse treasures old and new. "The bible is old treasure and the end time prophets are new treasure." With some, Calvinism is evil and responsible for amillennial doctrine which is responsible for anti semitism and the holocaust. "Replacement theology" ( Reformed covenantal theology) is from the pit of hell and dispensationalism is really big. One big guy who gets regular visits from "the patriarchs" does huge conferences in Jerusalem.

I can't begin to tell you how sickening it is when you find out more about this stuff and watch people get sucked into it. Leviathan is king over all the sons of pride, and under it all is pride- they are all on a higher level than us scripture only bottom feeders.

I agree with these posts. The 'Third Wave' (which includes Grudem and Storms) had nothing to do with Toronto. I am not sure why they are mentioned together in the thread title.

 

[Quickened]

I used to live in Toronto. On one occasion I decided to go check out the ‘Airport Church,’ which is the location of the so-called ‘Toronto Blessing.’ I saw a bunch of people yelping and jumping around like rabid cats. My favorite moment came when the ‘speaker,’ (in between yelps, hiccups, and jumps) quoted the only scripture of the service. This is what he said: “It is like when David said ‘my soul doth magnify the Lord.’” I found this hilarious because, of course, David never said that; Mary did. The only Bible in the whole circus of a service was a misquote! The charismatic movement is success story for Satan. One more way of ensuring people know nothing of scripture and everything of nothing.

John Wimber at one point made the comment that 10 years earlier they would have cast demons out of people manifesting the symptoms at Toronto, and now the pastors were saying it was the Holy Spirit. Not long after, Toronto was kicked out of the Vineyard denomination for unscriptural teaching and practice. Its a bit of a slanderous accusation to equate them with the entire charismatic movement. Plenty of charismatics (continuists) here at PB who certainly would not support any of the third wave garbage.

Regarding the question if it is entertaining evil spirits or not, there were many reports back then that led to a pretty clear conclusion of demon activity in some cases. Other seemed like hyped up people in frenzied mob hysteria-the deceived fallen flesh. Hard to tell what is sin and what is demons but that movement has plenty of both.

I have an old friend (well, used to have, don't get along so great now ) who has gone into the third wave big prophetic movement. The leaders are now having the patriarchs, Jeremiah, even Jesus, come to them from heaven (Mt of transfiguration type repeats is their doctrinal basis) and give them end time prophetic revelation foretelling the future, and revealing deeper truths of scripture that us common folks never understood yet. They usually appear as tall and regal, emanating light. They have a global folowing of millions. When you hear somebody describe the conferences, like talking with my old friend, it is a total creep out, and I can guarantee you it is more than just flesh. Big level demonic principalities are at work with deception and they have millions of charismatics groveling at their prophetic greatness.

It says in Matthew that the wise man brings out of his storehouse treasures old and new. "The bible is old treasure and the end time prophets are new treasure." With some, Calvinism is evil and responsible for amillennial doctrine which is responsible for anti semitism and the holocaust. "Replacement theology" ( Reformed covenantal theology) is from the pit of hell and dispensationalism is really big. One big guy who gets regular visits from "the patriarchs" does huge conferences in Jerusalem.

I can't begin to tell you how sickening it is when you find out more about this stuff and watch people get sucked into it. Leviathan is king over all the sons of pride, and under it all is pride- they are all on a higher level than us scripture only bottom feeders.

I agree with these posts. The 'Third Wave' (which includes Grudem and Storms) had nothing to do with Toronto. I am not sure why they are mentioned together in the thread title.

I may have made a mistake. I think that stemmed from an article i was reading. If i have made an error could i have you correct the thread title to be accurate? Thanks

 

[Marrow Man]

Many of these same supposed manifestations were exhibited during the so-called Cane Ridge revival in the early 1800s. The major minister involved, Barton Stone, attempted to justify all the happenings, which he labeled as "exercises": the barking exercise, the running exercise, etc. That was also considered to be a movement of the Holy Spirit. In that sense, this is actually nothing new, just a modern update of a false movement that ultimately distracts from the gospel.

 

[Rich Koster]

I've tried to do some searching since i have been involved with a discussion with the "happenings" at Toronto and similar events.

The happenings are usually similar in each account.
- "Holy Laughter"
- "slain in the spirit"
- jerking and convulsing on the floor
- Animal noises (often barking or lions roaring)

along with a host of other things.

I guess specifically I was wondering how these things tie in to the occult (if infact they do). I thought i remember reading at one time that there were some world religions that have practices that have the same outcome.

It seems they are entertaining spirits but not that of God. I would be interested in some more indepth discussion.

Do a search on Mike Bickle, John Arnott, William Branham and The Kansas City Prophets, some key players that led up to, or in Toronto. Also some useful links here (but I do not agree with DITC AoG theology)

Apologetics Coordination Team - Deception In The Church, counterfeit, revival, apostacy, brownsville, toronto, kenneth copeland, benny hinn, prophecy, anointing, vineyard, gnosticism, manifestation, miracle, false, john arnott, john kilpatrick, Paul