The Reformation as Renewal: Retrieving the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church by Matthew Barrett - June 2023 release

[Polanus1561]

The Reformation as Renewal: Retrieving the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church: Barrett, Matthew: 9780310097556: Amazon.com: Books

The Reformation as Renewal: Retrieving the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church [Barrett, Matthew] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Reformation as Renewal: Retrieving the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church

www.amazon.com

Preorder price is up now, which is why I posted this.

Dr. Joel Beeke's words caught my eye : "Matthew Barrett argues that the Reformers did not aim to start a new church but to renew the true 'catholic' church—that is, the universal church that Christ is building in all ages and among all nations through His Word. Barrett's thesis is stimulating and his arguments robust. His evidence ranges from medieval scholasticism to the teachings of the Reformers. Though readers may differ in their approaches to medieval theologians, Barrett demonstrates that the Reformers confessed with sincerity their faith in the one, holy, catholic (universal), and apostolic church. Thus, he reminds us that the Reformers were examples of not neglecting the doctrinal heritage of the church but embracing sola Scriptura in a manner that is not radically sectarian but well-informed by historical theology.
—Joel R. Beeke, President, Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary"

Also: "Far too long Protestants have imbibed from the fountain of the pop-history of the Reformation, namely, that the reformers rejected the "dark ages" and all things medieval. The truth of the matter is: history is more complex than this caricature. Barrett makes a compelling case that the Reformation has more in common with the early church and Middle Ages than most realize. The Reformation has genuinely unique attributes but is also rooted in the catholic, or universal, church. Barrett dispels the darkness of distortion, myth, and legend and shines the light of history, truth, and nuance to create a clear picture of where the continuities and discontinuities lie. This book is must-reading for all serious Protestants."
—J. V. Fesko, Harriett Barbour Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology, Reformed Theological Seminary, Jackson, Mississippi

hopefully @RamistThomist does a book review on this for us.

 

[RamistThomist]

Barrett has established full spectrum dominance on issues like classical theism. While it is true the Reformers didn't simply adopt Thomism and medieval categories en toto, they did appreciate and use these sources. Those who attack Barrett on this sound a lot like the Barthian "Calvin vs. Calvinists" schema that was debunked decades ago.

 

[Charles Johnson]

But the Reformers did look on the middle ages as the dark ages. They may even have invented the term.
I'm not opposed to being familiar with or reading the medievals (I read them myself), but I get the sense both sides want to sweep contrary data under the rug.

 

[Phil D.]

But the Reformers did look on the middle ages as the dark ages. They may even have invented the term.

Now that piqued my interest... Seems the term "dark ages" was actually derived from a description of the 10th century by the Roman Catholic cardinal and historian Caesar Baronius, in 1602.

En incipit, annus Redemptoris nongentesimus, tertia Indictione notatus, quo & nouum inchoatur saeculum quod sui asperitate ac boni sterilitate ferreum, maliq exundantis deformitate plumbeum, atque inopia scriptorum appellari confucuit obscurum. (Annales Eccesiastici, Vol. X, p.647)​

​

 

[RamistThomist]

But the Reformers did look on the middle ages as the dark ages. They may even have invented the term.
I'm not opposed to being familiar with or reading the medievals (I read them myself), but I get the sense both sides want to sweep contrary data under the rug.

Right, but Barrett is pushing back against the Neo-Orthodox tendencies to reject all things scholastic (including Reformed scholastic) and other generally Socinian tendencies.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Right, but Barrett is pushing back against the Neo-Orthodox tendencies to reject all things scholastic (including Reformed scholastic) and other generally Socinian tendencies.

I guess my question is, where is this neo-orthodox tendency a major problem? I have not necessarily seen it in my church (I attend an OPC) or neighoring churches. Is this really a widespread issue or is this something people like Barret and Carter are using to get more popular? Similar to how Wilson uses cultural issues. Is this primarily a baptist problem?

I guess the other question I would have on someone like Barrett to is why is he not part of a confessional church then if tradition and orthodoxy is so important to him? Why is it some reformed distinctions are so important to him and others are not (like baptizing babies)? What standard is he using to determine what he believes actually is orthodox?

 

[retroGRAD3]

Also, I have been reading Turretin and seeing how he is responding to real Socinians. Are we sure we are actually dealing with Socinians, or are we just calling people that to create controversy and get more clicks (again similar to what Wilson does)?

 

[RamistThomist]

I guess my question is, where is this neo-orthodox tendency a major problem? I have not necessarily seen it in my church (I attend an OPC) or neighoring churches. Is this really a widespread issue or is this something people like Barret and Carter are using to get more popular? Similar to how Wilson uses cultural issues. Is this primarily a baptist problem?

I guess the other question I would have on someone like Barrett to is why is he not part of a confessional church then if tradition and orthodoxy is so important to him? Why is it some reformed distinctions are so important to him and others are not (like baptizing babies)? What standard is he using to determine what he believes actually is orthodox?

Neo-Orthodox might have been misleading. But the Calvin vs Calvinist debate can be a problem. See Socinians like Owen Strachan, who is popular.

As to why Barrett isn't Presbyterian, I really can't answer that. On the other hand, if someone is retrieving the historic Reformed faith, including the section from Beza to Spurgeon, I don't see that as a negative.

To be sure, this isn't quite the problem it was 20 years ago when there weren't many translations of Vermigli, Junius, Zanchi, and the like. Even Perkins, an English writer, wasn't widely available.

 

[RamistThomist]

Also, I have been reading Turretin and seeing how he is responding to real Socinians. Are we sure we are actually dealing with Socinians, or are we just calling people that to create controversy and get more clicks (again similar to what Wilson does)?

There are similarities. One is an extreme biblicism that often includes a jettisoning of doctrines like divine simplicity.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Neo-Orthodox might have been misleading. But the Calvin vs Calvinist debate can be a problem. See Socinians like Owen Strachan, who is popular.

As to why Barrett isn't Presbyterian, I really can't answer that. On the other hand, if someone is retrieving the historic Reformed faith, including the section from Beza to Spurgeon, I don't see that as a negative.

To be sure, this isn't quite the problem it was 20 years ago when there weren't many translations of Vermigli, Junius, Zanchi, and the like. Even Perkins, an English writer, wasn't widely available.

Is Strachan truly a Socinian though? I know he has issues around EFS, but I don't think that is quite the same thing based on what I have read.

Also, does Barrett and do you acknowledge that the reformation took place because of specific failings in the middle ages? Both sides in this controversy need to make sure balance is maintained.

 

[Polanus1561]

Let’s just await this book for whatever answers we are seeking.

By the way, does anyone know who else is on the side against, other than Strachan / White ?

 

[JD]

I guess the other question I would have on someone like Barrett to is why is he not part of a confessional church then if tradition and orthodoxy is so important to him? Why is it some reformed distinctions are so important to him and others are not (like baptizing babies)? What standard is he using to determine what he believes actually is orthodox?

I am also very interested in the answer to this question. He's writing a systematic so I suppose we'll get the answer eventually but I wonder if he's written on this publicly yet.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Let’s just await this book for whatever answers we are seeking.

By the way, does anyone know who else is on the side against, other than Strachan / White ?

I listen to most dividing lines. To be fair to White, he appears to be more concerned with people abandoning sola scriptura and going to Rome. Perhaps this is a worry that he shouldn't have. Perhaps both sides continue to talk past each other.

When you talk about sides though, I don't think the majority of conservative churches even know there is a controversy. This seems more like a Twitter feud.

 

[Polanus1561]

I view this as a scholarly thing. I see Barrett’s thesis and look forward to him defending it. The scholarly endorsements for this book are interesting as well. They say a lot by itself.

 

[retroGRAD3]

I view this as a scholarly thing. I see Barrett’s thesis and look forward to him defending it. The scholarly endorsements for this book are interesting as well. They say a lot by itself.

I agree with this sentiment. As was alluded to earlier as well, it will be interesting to see if he defends his baptist views as catholic as well. This second sentence is not meant as a dig against reformed baptists either, I am just generally interested.

 

[Polanus1561]

I agree with this sentiment. As was alluded to earlier as well, it will be interesting to see if he defends his baptist views as catholic as well. This second sentence is not meant as a dig against reformed baptists either, I am just generally interested.

By the way, He edited the Reformation Theology book. This is not something new to him.

 

[retroGRAD3]

By the way, He edited the Reformation Theology book. This is not something new to him.

I have not read the book you mention? Does he answer the question in it?

 

[Polanus1561]

I have not read the book you mention? Does he answer the question in it?

Just a passing comment on additional info. Sorry may not be relevant

 

[retroGRAD3]

Since we are talking about classical theism, I would also mention that vol 8 of the crossway John Owen collection is now out.

 

[RamistThomist]

Is Strachan truly a Socinian though? I know he has issues around EFS, but I don't think that is quite the same thing based on what I have read.

No, but only barely. He has a deviant view of the Trinity.

Also, does Barrett and do you acknowledge that the reformation took place because of specific failings in the middle ages? Both sides in this controversy need to make sure balance is maintained.

Of course. That's the very essence of Reformed. I am a Reformed Western Catholic. Carl Trueman has a fine essay making this point. We are Reforming what was already there, but at the same time we are praising its strengths.

This seems more like a Twitter feud.

The metaphysics on both sides came to a head in the 2016 War for the Trinity.

 

[retroGRAD3]

We are Reforming what was already there, but at the same time we are praising its strengths.

Agree with this completely.

 

[Polanus1561]

https://credomag.com/magazine_issue/reformed-and-scholastic/
Fresh.

 

[RamistThomist]

Why did Jerome Zanchi retrieve Thomas Aquinas? - Credo Magazine

Jerome Zanchi (1516-90), an Italian born and leading reformed theologian in the late 16th century Europe, was well known for his scholastic style and his frequent use of Thomas Aquinas (1225-74). Testifying to Zanchi’s scholastic learning and influence on his and later generation of reformed...

credomag.com

 

[Beoga]

Neo-Orthodox might have been misleading. But the Calvin vs Calvinist debate can be a problem. See Socinians like Owen Strachan, who is popular.

No, but only barely. He has a deviant view of the Trinity.

So which is it, is Owen a Socinian or not (even if barely)?

 

[Polanus1561]

Why did Jerome Zanchi retrieve Thomas Aquinas? - Credo Magazine

Jerome Zanchi (1516-90), an Italian born and leading reformed theologian in the late 16th century Europe, was well known for his scholastic style and his frequent use of Thomas Aquinas (1225-74). Testifying to Zanchi’s scholastic learning and influence on his and later generation of reformed...

credomag.com

This issue and the commendations on Barrett’s book generally indicate that Reformed seminaries / scholarly opinion are definitely not on James White’s side (whether he is right or not). One must admit White’s opinion is a minority opinion, right or not. You have Fesko (RTS), McGraw (GPTS), Beeke (PRTS), Clark (Wscal) etc.

 

[retroGRAD3]

This issue and the commendations on Barrett’s book generally indicate that Reformed seminaries / scholarly opinion are definitely not on James White’s side (whether he is right or not). One must admit White’s opinion is a minority opinion, right or not. You have Fesko (RTS), McGraw (GPTS), Beeke (PRTS), Clark (Wscal) etc.

Are you sure you know what White is actually arguing for? Also, I don't believe he has made any specific commentary on this book yet other than it will be interesting to see what it says.

 

[Polanus1561]

Are you sure you know what White is actually arguing for? Also, I don't believe he has made any specific commentary on this book yet other than it will be interesting to see

Are you on twitter?

 

[retroGRAD3]

Are you on twitter?

Does my answer to this question indicate your answer to my question?

 

[retroGRAD3]

To answer directly though, I do listen to the dividing line where he reads and responds to Twitter threads. I don't have a Twitter account, but I do check the threads he discusses and I am able to see them so they appear to be public. Unless there is also a private discussion going on.

 

[Polanus1561]

To answer directly though, I do listen to the dividing line where he reads and responds to Twitter threads. I don't have a Twitter account, but I do check the threads he discusses and I am able to see them so they appear to be public. Unless there is also a private discussion going on.

Ok. I listened to yesterday's DL and his arguments. As a spectator to all of these, I am just saying from what I read on Credo/the book's commendations, White is a minority voice here, whether he is right or wrong. I think he has also commented against the Credo mag articles just today but I haven't looked in detail.

And this I asked earlier in this thread "By the way, does anyone know who else is on the side against, other than Strachan / White?" I am just curious on the voices of either side which I may have missed out.