The Pyramids of Giza and Scientific Methodology

[No Other Name]

Was @RamistThomist being serious or sarcastic? I took it as sarcasm. The Book of Enoch has a wild mythology. It is useful for purposes of knowing what the pop culture of the day held to (1st-2nd c BC – 1st c AD).
It's debatable why Jude & Peter quote Enoch. At the very least we can say that the portions they quote could state truth, just as Paul quotes philosophers in Acts 17:28. This doesn't mean Paul endorses all of their philosophy; nor does Jude endorse all of Enoch's book.

I will let Jacob speak for himself, as he can and does speak very well.

As to the bolded, no one disagrees, particularly regarding heresies contained within Enoch. But that is one thing; quite another is to lump Enoch in with the Quran or Icelandic sagas etc. That is the context I was responding to. The number/nature of truths contained in Enoch vs. these other non-biblical works are not the same.

 

[Sam Jer]

Doesn't Jude directly quote the book of Enoch? And 1 Peter make heavy use of it? I don't think I am misremembering, but that is definitely an exhibit of evidence that Enoch is at least far closer to holding some truth than the others you mention.

But that is one thing; quite another is to lump Enoch in with the Quran or Icelandic sagas etc. That is the context I was responding to. The number of truths contained in Enoch vs. these other non-biblical works are not the same.

Have you read it? It's been a while but I do remember it being... I think the best way to describe it is Paranymph's:

has a wild mythology

Either way, the fact that some of you say that this ties in to Heiser's polytheistic views makes it all the more concerning.

 

[No Other Name]

Either way, the fact that some of you say that this ties in to Heiser's polytheistic views makes it all the more concerning.

Wait, what? Who are "some of you"? What is the "this" that ties into Heiser? And Heiser's polytheistic views? I am lost.

 

[JvMill]

Wait, what? Who are "some of you"? What is the "this" that ties into Heiser? And Heiser's polytheistic views? I am lost.

I think because I brought up Heiser with Jacob’s comment of the watchers. I probably spoke out of turn I am sorry

 

[Sam Jer]

Who are "some of you"?

Seems to be only one, I should have been more accurate in my speech. I am sorry.

What is the "this" that ties into Heiser?

The referring to and defending of the Book of Enoch

And Heiser's polytheistic views? I am lost.

But his views are polytheistic - if I recall correctly, he believes in approximately 70 lesser gods under Jehovah, which he insists are not angels but actual gods. (I am only writing "If I recall correctly" because of the time since I looked into it)

 

[No Other Name]

The referring to and defending of the Book of Enoch

In my case, "defending" miscasts what I was doing and why. You lumped Enoch in the bin with the Quran and Olympian and Icelandic sagas. I am saying that is unfair to throw Enoch in the heap alongside those since details of Enoch are referred to within inspired Scripture and the others are not. That is all.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

if I recall correctly, he believes in approximately 70 lesser gods under Jehovah, which he insists are not angels but actual gods.

I am unaware that is true, but I am not well read at all on Heiser. If this is true, it is news to me.

 

[Sam Jer]

In my case, "defending" miscasts what I was doing and why. You lumped Enoch in the bin with the Quran and Olympian and Icelandic sagas. I am saying that is unfair to throw Enoch in the heap alongside those since details of Enoch are referred to within inspired Scripture and the others are not. That is all.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

I am unaware that is true, but I am not well read at all on Heiser. If this is true, it is news to me.

Is there any reference to the book of Enoch in scripture, except that one quote from Enoch quoted by both the Book of Enoch and the Epistle of Jude? Icelandic Sagas included a real voyage to the Americas, Greek mythology includes a war in Troy that many argue actually happened, even if the details are wrong, and the Quran probably includes a lot of true things about the life and times of Muhammad.

 

[RamistThomist]

Was @RamistThomist being serious or sarcastic? I took it as sarcasm. The Book of Enoch has a wild mythology. It is useful for purposes of knowing what the pop culture of the day held to (1st-2nd c BC – 1st c AD).
It's debatable why Jude & Peter quote Enoch. At the very least we can say that the portions they quote could state truth, just as Paul quotes philosophers in Acts 17:28. This doesn't mean Paul endorses all of their philosophy; nor does Jude endorse all of Enoch's book.

I was serious. None of my arguments appeal to Enoch. And while I have benefited from Heiser, my arguments are my own and I don't follow all of his conclusions. I've given my final views here.

Update on the Supernatural Reading

The context is a series of posts on X made by the Haunted Cosmos crowd, wherein they speculated about fairies and mermaids. Quite rightly, they were ridiculed. Unfortunately, now people associate i…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

I've collected a scholarly bibliography here.

Updated Bibliography on Genesis 6 issues

At this point I no longer engage in extended discussions on the Nephilim. If someone has read the relevant literature and rejects the supernatural reading, I can respect that. That person is educat…

tentsofshem.wordpress.com

 

[No Other Name]

Is there any reference to the book of Enoch in scripture, except that one quote from Enoch quoted by both the Book of Enoch and the Epistle of Jude?

Peter draws heavily from it regarding fallen angels.

Even if you deny it is necessarily true that Peter is referencing Enoch per se rather than Peter drawing on a shared view of angelology with the author of Enoch (which is fair enough, if I recall the position is not settled scholastically), it still is a long way from dumping Enoch in with other mythologies whose supernatural elements are wholly and top-to-bottom unsubstantiated - unlike Enoch who shares some basic elementary supernatural narrative elements with Scripture.

 

[RamistThomist]

But his views are polytheistic - if I recall correctly, he believes in approximately 70 lesser gods under Jehovah, which he insists are not angels but actual gods. (I am only writing "If I recall correctly" because of the time since I looked into it)

He doesn't mean "god" in the sense that they are in the same genus as Yahweh. For that matter, Yahweh isn't even in a genus. Could he have said it better? Probably, but he isn't a polytheist. Strictly speaking, they are sons of God.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

Isn't the whole watcher thing part of the so-called Book of Enoch? Should it really be used as a more credible source then Greek mythology, Icelandic Sagas or the Quran?

Daniel uses the term Watcher, so it predates Enoch. I'm happy following the LXX and calling them angels. Angels, though, is prone to misunderstanding.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

 

[No Other Name]

I'll keep my informative emoji, but your addition of the meme tempts me to change to the laughing one. hahaha

You and I were just talking about these kinds of discussions the other day hahaha

 

[Sam Jer]

Daniel uses the term Watcher, so it predates Enoch

Can you give the reference? All I can find is a wikipedia article that says that "Daniel von Wachter (* 1970 in München) ist ein deutscher Religionsphilosoph".

 

[Frisian Gardener]

I predict Haunted Cosmos won't sit this one out. I am fairly sure that they will not do a thorough investigation either. But maybe they will surprise and get better? We will see.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

Go to Louisiana and go scour neighborhood playgrounds. Look for a guy planking unsupported sideways in the air, and you will have found our resident Nephilim specialist.

 

[Sam Jer]

He doesn't mean "god" in the sense that they are in the same genus as Yahweh. For that matter, Yahweh isn't even in a genus. Could he have said it better? Probably, but he isn't a polytheist. Strictly speaking, they are sons of God.

How is that diffrent from the countless pagan religions that believe in one god or force that is superior and/or created the rest?

 

[RamistThomist]

How is that diffrent from the countless pagan religions that believe in one god or force that is superior and/or created the rest?

1) He means "angel" or some being around the heavenly council.
2) The bible uses elohim in a manner of speaking, far less guardedly than Heiser.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

Can you give the reference? All I can find is a wikipedia article that says that "Daniel von Wachter (* 1970 in München) ist ein deutscher Religionsphilosoph".

Daniel 4:13;“I saw in the visions of my head as I lay in bed, and behold, a watcher, a holy one, came down from heaven.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I will let Jacob speak for himself, as he can and does speak very well.

And has in the past quite extensively:

I wouldn't expect him to say much as he has pretty much said it all before - it's worth checking out some if his past posts on the topic.

 

[No Other Name]

I wouldn't expect him to say much as he has pretty much said it all before - it's worth checking out some if his past posts on the topic.

He never says much at one time. If we averaged word counts per post he would be one of the lowest (outside of book reviews), but yes, his posts are always worth checking out in my opinion

 

[RamistThomist]

I'm humbled by the kind words. Truth is, there really isn't too much else to say. Either someone has interacted with the literature on the topic or not. And my position is a bit more nuanced than "angels mating with humans," which I don't actually hold if stated that way.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2025

Actually, the best book on this is Andrew Stephen Damick's Lord of Spirits. I didn't review it here because of its EO themes, but he actually rejects Heiser's thesis, though he incorporates the rest of the supernatural worldview.