The Protestant Church is a whore.

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rembrandt

Puritan Board Sophomore
I love the church. I embrace the church. I abide in the church. But the bride of Christ is a whore. It is filthy rotten. We are slackers. We are schismatics. Look at the Protestant church today. Despising the sacraments. Treating holy things with contempt. Denominations are God's judgment upon a sickened creature. Every denomination I can think of is ultimately worthless. Vain religion is the theme of most Christian churches.

The church of the Reformation is no better. The early church was caught in all kinds of false teaching. The church of the OT has been divorced from God. What are we left with?

The church is ultimately worthless, save the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ. The struggle of the invisible church is what has kept any sort of life active in a dark world. The professors of religion are doomed for destruction, what church will not be thrown into the pit? Except those who know the blood song of the Lamb.

I am going to be in repentance over a sickened church for the following weeks. I say this because I am struggling with the doctrine and practice of my local church. But despite of that, I love her. She is more precious than gold. Being perfected into the perfect bride.

O God, may you marry this whore to yourself based on the eternal righteousness of your Son. I am in awe that you have still made us spotless as such despite of our stain.

Rembrandt
 
[quote:b82cebdc54][i:b82cebdc54]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:b82cebdc54]
eeeps! [/quote:b82cebdc54]
A profound response Paul :thumbup:

Other Paul,
What has happened recently to provoke such a negative view of the church? I can identify with your struggle, believe me. But, I think these struggles in the church are all part of the testing and refining of God's church so that the Gospel is preserved and the faithful remain dependent upon Christ, not upon the Church.

[Edited on 5-16-2004 by puritansailor]
 
I think it's a mistake to call the Bride of Christ a "whore". And I find it offensive...perhaps I should examine my attitude, or perhaps we should examine what constitutes the Bride of Christ.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. But the Church, and the "protestant church" is not one and the same. The Church is composed of believers, of those who are redeemed, whether they be members of the Protestant church or the Catholic church or whether they were from the early church. The churches of today, whether they're prebs. or baptist, or reformed, are often composed of and have many charlatans, and false teachers among their midst. It is not these churches that form the Bride of Christ, but it is the individuals whose heart has been turned from a life of sin who are the Church, the Bride of Christ.

We are all sinners, we are all whores, we are all prostitutes that have been redeemed from the muck that we loved. However, if AFTER we've been redeemed and are a member of the Church and are part of the Bride of Christ, we continue to live a life of whoredom, we really must ask ourselves if we have been saved at all. Because Jesus is bringing to himself a spotless and holy bride.

[Edited on 5-16-2004 by ChristianasJourney]
 
[quote:11f2365950][i:11f2365950]Originally posted by ChristianasJourney[/i:11f2365950]
I think it's a mistake to call the Bride of Christ a "whore". And I find it offensive...perhaps I should examine my attitude, or perhaps we should examine what constitutes the Bride of Christ.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. But the Church, and the "protestant church" is not one and the same. The Church is composed of believers, of those who are redeemed, whether they be members of the Protestant church or the Catholic church or whether they were from the early church. The churches of today, whether they're prebs. or baptist, or reformed, are often composed of and have many charlatans, and false teachers among their midst. It is not these churches that form the Bride of Christ, but it is the individuals whose heart has been turned from a life of sin who are the Church, the Bride of Christ.

We are all sinners, we are all whores, we are all prostitutes that have been redeemed from the muck that we loved. However, if AFTER we've been redeemed and are a member of the Church and are part of the Bride of Christ, we continue to live a life of whoredom, we really must ask ourselves if we have been saved at all. Because Jesus is bringing to himself a spotless and holy bride.

[Edited on 5-16-2004 by ChristianasJourney] [/quote:11f2365950]

Reply...:thumbup::thumbup:
 
I think we can describe the church as a "whore"...but not without judging ourselves, too. God spoke to His prophets describing Israel as such.

However, care must be taken when saying this much. WE are part of the invisible church. I believe denominations, while many resulted because of schismatics, many more separated themselves and formed a new denom to preserve the purity of the gospel or because of some gross, unrepentant sin of their parent denom.



Be careful in your zeal that you are not neglecting grace.
 
It reminds me of an illustration used against those who say they are followers of Christ yet they don't attend church for whatever reason. I don't remember who said it, but basically a Christian was told by someone that they loved Christ, but couldn't stand His followers, or the church.

The Christian responded that that would be like telling me you love me yet you think my wife is a whore. One of the fruits of the Spirit is a love for the brethren, and though the church is far from perfect she is His bride. I can't imagine anyone calling my wife a whore then expect to have any sort of relationship with me. As much as I love my wife I imagine it doesn't surpass the zeal Christ has for His bride.

[Edited on 5-16-2004 by Len]
 
I actually have a high view of the church. Whatever the church says is binding. And the invisible church is infallible (in a way).

[quote:6f942b9867]However, if AFTER we've been redeemed and are a member of the Church and are part of the Bride of Christ, we continue to live a life of whoredom, we really must ask ourselves if we have been saved at all. Because Jesus is bringing to himself a spotless and holy bride.[/quote:6f942b9867]

Does the church have inherited righteousness, or the covering of atonement? The regenerate state does not equal guiltlessness.

[quote:6f942b9867]What has happened recently to provoke such a negative view of the church?[/quote:6f942b9867]

Looking around.

[quote:6f942b9867]But, I think these struggles in the church are all part of the testing and refining of God's church so that the Gospel is preserved and the faithful remain dependent upon Christ, not upon the Church.[/quote:6f942b9867]

true. true.

[quote:6f942b9867]I think we can describe the church as a "whore"...but not without judging ourselves, too. God spoke to His prophets describing Israel as such.[/quote:6f942b9867]

I am trying to remember the theologian that says we are whores, I know he is Reformed.

In the midst of this, the church is upholding the truth in the world. Without us, I am scared to know what the world would look like.

The church is an illegitamate step-child that just happened to be adopted by grace. The church is the dispenser of grace into the world. I love her, and I feed off of her. She is the source of my salvation, without her there would be none.

Rembrandt
 
[quote:ea2486be22][i:ea2486be22]Originally posted by Len[/i:ea2486be22]
It reminds me of an illustration used against those who say they are followers of Christ yet they don't attend church for whatever reason. I don't remember who said it, but basically a Christian was told by someone that they loved Christ, but couldn't stand His followers, or the church.

The Christian responded that that would be like telling me you love me yet you think my wife is a whore. One of the fruits of the Spirit is a love for the brethren, and though the church is far from perfect she is His bride. I can't imagine anyone calling my wife a whore then expect to have any sort of relationship with me. As much as I love my wife I imagine it doesn't surpass the zeal Christ has for His bride.

[Edited on 5-16-2004 by Len] [/quote:ea2486be22]

Yes, it does sound like someone who doesn't want fellowship with the church. But I do! I don't go around saying that all the time, instead I talk about her beauty and how God loves her and Jesus Christ saved her. But at the same time I cannot escape the reality that 97.5% of church's in my town are disobedient slobs. I am suprised that God has not struck the majority of the church dead because of her offerings of 'strange fire.' It was said at one of the last Ligonier conferences, that God would do us a great service to administer the punishment given to the two priests in the temple who were treating holy things with contempt.

Rembrandt
 
Paul (the painter),

Sometimes I feel like that too. When this verbal persecution we see turns into violence, I pray we, as a church, remember what we've turned away from and embrace it again.
 
I have begun reading "The John Revelation Project" which is an exposition of Revelation based on a parallels from Joshua and the gospel of John by the faculty at Knox Theological Seminary and one of the assertions that is made is just what the title of this thread states, "The Protestant Church is a whore".

Here is a quote from a footnote in this paper:

There are clues to the identity of the Babylonian whore woven within the Johannine material according to the parallel and chiastic patterning that tie the two books, the Fourth Gospel and Revelation, together. The Great Whore of Revelation, who drinks her cup of loathsomeness and is arrayed in scarlet (Rev 17:4), is a mockery of a queen (Rev 18:7) now that her great hour of judgment and death has come (Rev 18:10). Parallel to the Great Whore of Revelation is the blessed Lord Jesus of John's Gospel, who in His suffering for us drank the loathsome cup (John 18:11), was arrayed in scarlet (John 19:2), had His kingdom mocked (John 19:3), and suffered death when the great hour of judgment hadcome (John 17:1). John justly charges the Great Whore with blasphemy (Rev 17:3) and fornication (Rev 17:4-5). Bearing her reproach, the precious Lord Jesus suffered the calumnious charges of blasphemy (John 10:33) and fornication (John 8:41). Clearly, John is telling us that the Lord Jesus took the reproach of the whore of Revelation upon Himself. For anyone who has a reformed doctrine of particular redemption, the identity of the whore should become immediately apparent.

Since all of this is new to me I am not indorsing this view just posting it. In fact I was getting ready to post a question asking people what they think of this project and get other peoples take on if it could perhaps be a well reasoned reformed exposition of the book of Revelation.

In Christ,
David
 
My wife works in a Christian bookstore, (please don't hold it against her) and one day I told her that I'm writing a book but I think the title might turn people off. She asked me what the title was, I answered,
"The Church Is A Blind, Naked Whore"
I was serious but I don't think it would fair well in the market against "The Purpose Driven Church" and yet it's really two titles for the same book.

The church right and wrong, good and bad is the vehicle, even the visible body of Christ that He uses to propagate the gospel generation after generation. The church is good because God has consesrated it for a holy pupose BUT... the church has whored after the world from Constantine on. The church is the naked whore on the auction block that Hosea loved and redeemed - a blind naked whore.

I have often wondered if Babylon the Great wasn't the Roman Catholic church, (the colors purple and crimson even match the robes of the cardinals and bishops) the mother of prostitutes, that would be us, the protestants.

And the way I see it, the church is the bride of Christ yes, but the marriage is a future event. The church is in no way yet prepared to be the bride, not when she's wearing rags or naked, she's blind and whoring after the world and it's riches. She must first ungergo a purification and perhaps it has started. Perhaps it began with the pedaphilia scandal in the mother church and will soon move onto her children - the judgment of the church following history.

Anyway, these are idlings and musings and things that make you say, 'hmmmm'. I'm sorry for what touched off this catharsis in rembrandt but he is not wrong in his assessment of the church. She is not ready to be the bride yet, she will be, God continues to call out and save the elect inspite of all of her faults. There is no other means for salvation, but she is not bride-like, she is more like a blind, naked whore. :think:
 
<<<I love the church. I embrace the church. I abide in the church. But the bride of Christ is a whore.>>>

The bride of Christ ,the church,the heavenly Jerusalem is not a whore.It is the apostate church,Babylon, that is a whore,who has commited fornication,"the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth".Rev.17:5
andreas.:candle:
 
[quote:31b7dbebef][i:31b7dbebef]Originally posted by andreas[/i:31b7dbebef]
<<<I love the church. I embrace the church. I abide in the church. But the bride of Christ is a whore.>>>

The bride of Christ ,the church,the heavenly Jerusalem is not a whore.It is the apostate church,Babylon, that is a whore,who has commited fornication,"the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth".Rev.17:5
andreas.:candle: [/quote:31b7dbebef]

What do you think of the prophets calling the OT church a whore?

We are whores being perfected by the blood of the Lamb. God sees us as pure because of his blood. But that doesn't mean that we are not whores.

Are we not sinners because we are jusified/righteous? The church is a whore, yet a perfect bride. Same concept.

Rembrandt
 
<<<Are we not sinners because we are jusified/righteous? The church is a whore, yet a perfect bride. Same concept. >>>


" And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"
Rev 21:9-10

The new Jerusalem is holy,for it has been consecrated by God as a place without sin.The new Jerusalem is holy and free from sin,unlike the old Jerusalem ravaged by sin.The bride comes down from heaven from God.You can not call her a whore.It is offensive.How can you call something that comes from heaven,from God,a whore?
andreas.
:candle:
 
[quote:2270e89165]The new Jerusalem is holy,for it has been consecrated by God as a place without sin.The new Jerusalem is holy and free from sin,unlike the old Jerusalem ravaged by sin.The bride comes down from heaven from God.You can not call her a .It is offensive.How can you call something that comes from heaven,from God,a ?
andreas.[/quote:2270e89165]

That is poor. You didn't even touch my arguement.

The new Jerusalem has not yet arrived. The church is not yet in heaven. The church is not yet glorified. There is still sin in the church therefore there is still filth in the bride.

I will say again:
[quote:2270e89165]What do you think of the prophets calling the OT church a ?

We are s being perfected by the of the Lamb. God sees us as pure because of his . But that doesn't mean that we are not s.

[b:2270e89165]Are we not sinners [yet] are jusified/righteous? The church is a , yet a perfect bride. Same concept.[/b:2270e89165][/quote:2270e89165]

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-22-2004 by rembrandt]
 
I'm not sure I agree that the Church is a whore. Although I've wondered myself and left many Churches because of their whoring.
I believe that most of what we see in Evangelical Christianity is not Christian, it is of the flesh, it is wickedness, it is blasphemous, it's all that and more.
We have to remember the Church is not flesh and blood. It is not carnal. The Church is made up of sinners who forget most of the time that they died in Christ anmd live for the flesh. Christian and non Christians exist in the Chruch side by side.
We have to remember that it is the Spirit that He causes to work in us that is building His Church and is ultimately what constitutes the Church. Not the flesh.
The Church is not a whore because the Holy spirit is not a whore.
 
[quote:d5ebe74a70]The Church is not a whore because the Holy spirit is not a whore.[/quote:d5ebe74a70]

Thats like saying that we (believers) are not sinners because the Holy Spirit indwells us. Just because the Holy Spirit indwells a broken vessel (the church), it does not follow that the Holy Spirit is a whore.

Rembrandt
 
Doesn't Paul teach that the Church is the very body of Christ? Can we identify ourselves apart from Christ and call ourselves whores?
I'm not sure I can say more on this because I need to preach to myself. I've said such things in the past as well, but when I look back on it, it only hurt the Body because I left them rather than bore their burdens, prayed with them and turned the brothers from their error. I taught my family to be head strong and critical of the Church. Now I'm reaping what I sowed and have a son who will not attend Church and heads off in his own headstrong ways.
Is the Church the Body of Christ a whore? It would break my heart to think that Christ and God's work in the lives of men leads to whordom.
 
[quote:161eef2abe]Doesn't Paul teach that the Church is the very body of Christ? Can we identify ourselves apart from Christ and call ourselves whores?[/quote:161eef2abe]

The OT church was united to Christ.
The OT church was called a whore.
The NT church is united to Christ.
The NT church is called a whore.

What would have changed the titles of the church since the OT age? The OT church was God's wife and was sanctified by Jesus Christ. They are a whore : We are a whore.

[quote:161eef2abe]It would break my heart to think that Christ and God's work in the lives of men leads to whordom.[/quote:161eef2abe]

What? What kind of logic are you using here? God's work is [i:161eef2abe]leading[/i:161eef2abe] to sanctification. We are not yet fully sanctified. We are sinners, yet righteous. One day we will not be sinners. One day the church will be glorified. That has yet to happen.

[quote:161eef2abe]I've said such things in the past as well, but when I look back on it, it only hurt the Body because I left them rather than bore their burdens, prayed with them and turned the brothers from their error. I taught my family to be head strong and critical of the Church. Now I'm reaping what I sowed and have a son who will not attend Church and heads off in his own headstrong ways.[/quote:161eef2abe]

I am not saying that we should walk around and say that the church is a whore and be church critics. We are to speak well of the church, for it is our salvation. But we cannot omit the obvious. The prophets didn't always speak well of the church because the church wasn't always well.

Also, I am not necessarily talking about individual churches, just the church atlarge.

Rembrandt

P.S. read my other posts that speak very well of the church. Read my opening statement.
 
I understand your other posts, your discouraged. We all get that way.
All I've been trying to say is that looking at the flesh instead of the Spirit is discouraging and the wrong way to view the Church.
Haven't you read that not all Isreal were Isreal? Isreal in The OT was called a whore but not the remnant that God preserved. The same applies to the NT Church (not all christians are Christians).
We are told to build one another up and encourage one another. How does calling the Church a whore do that?
Paul in Corinthians had ample opportunity to state that but didn't.
2:16 - 17 " Don't you know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is Holy, and that is what you are."
What you say destroys the faith in your weaker brothers who are equally the temple of God. Why destroy them?

Read 6:12 -20 Paul could have used that kind of language here but didn't. Why? "For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body." Appearances are not everything. This encourages and builds up.

I'm afraid that many in the Church will continue to heed your teaching and live according to the flesh.

This is my last post on the subject. You can be reckless with your words if you like.
Instead I encourage you to use the fire in your soul to correct the Church in Love, call sin sin, call darkness darkness, please point out wickedness and apsotacy in her midst. We need this kind of love today.

Calling Christ's body a whore doesn't build up or encourage.
I state this as strongly as I do because we reap what we sow.
I know I have. Just trying to keep you from sorrow also.
 
The Bride is not a whore. The Bride is distinguished from a whore. Sinners who have come into the church might have been characterized (literaly or figuratively) as whores, drunkards, murderers, etc. But no longer (1 Cor 6:11). Christ's Bride is a spotless pure thing through sanctification (2 Cor. 11:2). But the Bride is not the same entity as the visible church.

The visible church isn't always a whore. Where apostasy reigns, where she has "left her first love," where she has gone after other gods, there she has played the harlot. But the church that loves the gospel of grace, and exercises self discipline is not behaving like a whore.

The church that is proud of its false gospel (Gal. 1:6; 3:1), its toleration (1 Cor. 5:1,2; Rev. 2:20), its self-righteousness (Lk. 18:9-14) is a whore. :wr50:
 
[quote:fc3b601654]This is my last post on the subject.[/quote:fc3b601654]

Okay.

[quote:fc3b601654]Haven't you read that not all Isreal were Isreal? Isreal in The OT was called a but not the remnant that God preserved. The same applies to the NT Church (not all christians are Christians).[/quote:fc3b601654]

Do you think that there could have been some of the elect among the church at large who he called a ? He was talking about the visible church. I realize that. But the invisible church comprises of the visible church. Can the remnant fall into grave errors? Yes, but they will finally be rescued. Therefore they would fall under the same category as the church at large. Remember, I was not talking about individuals or individual churches, but the Christian church as a whole. Though some of us might be clean, we still have our identity with the rebellious whole.

[quote:fc3b601654]Calling Christ's body a doesn't build up or encourage.[/quote:fc3b601654]

Under law we are s. Under grace we are not. Under grace one of the functions of the law is to encourage. We must not see this apart from grace.

[quote:fc3b601654]I'm afraid that many in the Church will continue to heed your teaching and live according to the flesh.[/quote:fc3b601654]

My teaching? When the prophets used this term, did it encourage people to live according to the flesh? Or did it encourage the elect to repent? The law is to lead us to grace.

[quote:fc3b601654]All I've been trying to say is that looking at the flesh instead of the Spirit is discouraging and the wrong way to view the Church.[/quote:fc3b601654]

I agree. The Spirit indwells the church. From us is salvation. The grace of Christ is abiding in the church. We are a sactuary of the Spirit. I've already said these things.

The /sin issue is definitely not the domlnent act of my thinking. If fact, I don't want to think about it again after this thread finally gets over with...

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by rembrandt]

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by rembrandt]
 
Where in the Bible is the church ever referred to as a whore?

It never is. Never.

In the OT the term was used for Judah and Israel - two nations of people. But the term has never been used to describe the blood bought bride of Christ.

Phillip
 
[quote:4fb8803544]In the OT the term was used for Judah and Israel - two nations of people. But the term has never been used to describe the blood bought bride of Christ.[/quote:4fb8803544]

That sounds like a thoroughly baptistic understanding.
 
anything wrong with that?

Again, show me one verse in the Bible where the blood bought bride of Christ is referred to as a whore.

Phillip
 
Thats going to have to wait until tomorrow because I cannot perform a search on my computer because it is an illegal word.

But in the meantime, how about when the prophet married a whore to demonstrate the relation of Israel to God. Israel was a whore, and yet God still married her because of his longsuffering.

All the verses I can scrounge up right now seem to be when Israel was comitting idolatry and they were being rebuked and called names by the prophets. I mean, I know that 'whore' is not the most accurate title for the church, because it doesn't take into account grace.

I don't think he was calling only the nation a whore. But the church that is the nation a whore. I don't feel like getting into a discussion of CT though...

Rembrandt
 
Let me be clear - I am referring not to any denominatio, group, or local church. I am referring to the bride of Christ, His body. It is never referred to as anything derogatory! It is, by virtue of His sacrifice, holy!

I am making this point to say that you need to reconsider who you are talking about. Is it really the church if it is acting like a harlot?

Phillip
 
[quote:83009c6fc7]I am making this point to say that you need to reconsider who you are talking about. Is it really the church if it is acting like a harlot?[/quote:83009c6fc7]

The visible church, yes. There are elect in the 'visible church' or 'outward community'. I am talking about the church as a whole. Could there be elect members in the visible church that I am referring to as a whore? Yes. I mean, the elect can be rebellious for a time, right? That doesn't mean [i:83009c6fc7]every single[/i:83009c6fc7] member of the church is rebellious. Just like the prophets lumped together all of the OT church and called them names, but there was a remnant that those names both did and didn't apply to in a sence. The pure and faithful were identified along with the rest, and could have had their blessings cut off because of the rest. But it doens't follow that every single member of the community is living in whoredom.

But this convsation isn't going to work if we can't agree on [i:83009c6fc7]"who"[/i:83009c6fc7] the church is...

Rembrandt
 
:amen: and :ditto:

Very well said, Paul!

To impugn the church this way is to falsely accuse the body of Christ - the WHOLE body.

Phillip
 
I was simply saying that the majority of the church has gone astray. Let me ask this, why did the prophets clump the OT church into one big whole? The church as a whole has gone astray. That doesn't mean that there are some that are faithful. My statement was a generalization. You can call it false reasoning. But if the Bible gives all those who profess, the title of 'church', then the entire mass is to be seen together (in a sence).

When the prophets said "ALL" (or generalized), they knew that it wasn't absolutely every single person they were directly speaking to, but the church atlarge. So, I think the logic behind your statements makes perfect sence, but it is not entirely applicable when we hear the way the prophets spoke. [b:5c03a1097e]And Paul said that ALL of Israel was rejected because of unbelief. But it does not follow that he actually meant ALL. He mentions a remnant who were under the ALL, but yet were faithful.[/b:5c03a1097e]

Rembrandt

[Edited on 5-23-2004 by rembrandt]
 
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