The OPC & Subscriptionism.

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Bernard_Marx

Puritan Board Freshman
As many of you know the OPC and my own denomination (CanRC) are currently in a "sister church" relationship. Opponants on my side of the fence say that the OPC does not even really require it's ministers, let alone it's people, to subscribe to the Westminster standards. They might do so in name but in practice is another thing. At a classis meeting one minister mentioned to me (I happened to be there) that when he attended an OPC Presbytry meeting they allowed people to take exceptions to the WCF.

I know that the OPC is a group in declension (like mine is) but this is quite alarming. It also brings up some important questions:

1) How did this trend begin?
2) Is there a more conservative element in the OPC that is working towards orthodoxy?
3) How wide spread is this liberalism?
4) Oddly enough Reformed denoms. from the US tend to be a little more conservative up here in Canada. Is this the case as well?
5) Are other denoms., other than mine, also concerned about this?
6) What does this all mean for the OPC's future? Another PCA or CRC?

Lemme know! :detective:
 
Tom...

My experience is limited, but my exposure to some of the key people in the OPC right now has been pretty good in the last year.

I got to know Danny Olinger because he was our home missionary who helped us get into the OPC. He is died in the wool. You cannot find a more exuberant person to champion the OPC. I think he would tell you that he is concerned about not a few issues, but I don't think he would say that the OPC is declining. In fact, I believe the OPC has grown every year. It is a slow steady growth, and it is not due to compromised worship or worldly tactics.

I also live 30 minutes from the Moderator of the OPC from last year's GA. Pastor Larry Wilson is extremely optimistic about the OPC's future.

However, one caveat in all of this is that both these men are in the Ohio Presbytery, of which I'm told is one of the most conservative.

Last year's GA was a win on alot of fronts from what I'm told. I think that when the justification issues are resolved, it will be even better.

So, based on all of that, I think the OPC is on a trend towards staying conservative instead of becoming liberal.

I will certainly check my sources on this, but I am almost positive that subscription to the WCF by laypeople has never been an issue. They are not required to do so and I believe that it has always been that way. Is this cause for concern? Perhaps. Since laypeople do not generally teach anything in the church, then I think their exceptions to the WCF are largley private to them. But if ministers are teaching contrary to the WCF, that is a much bigger problem.

From what I'm told, ministers are allowed to take exceptions as long as they don't teach them. And the exceptions are rarely anything major. I can speak for the people I am around in that none of the elders and pastors I know take any exceptions.

I would encourage you to visit the OPC website and perhaps look at issues of Ordained Servant and New Horizons. I think if you read some of these, you'll get a better feel for what the OPC is like. Also, you may want to look at some of the histories. If you email Rev. Olinger, he will send you a free copy of some of the histories. The OPC went through some major splits in the first years of their development. They have already dealt with issues that many denominations have yet to deal with. So that leads me to believe that they are mature in their struggles.

If I can be of any further help, please let me know.

In Christ,

KC
 
I would agree with Kevin. The OPC is not in decline. Historically, the Presbyterian Curch has never asked a non-officer to subscribe to the Standards. As far as exceptions are concerned, each Presbytery and Session would have to consider the nature of the exception, but in general, the OPC is not like the PCA regarding subscription vows.
 
Kevin,

It's good to know that there is in fact a conservative element within the OPC, a presbytry even.

Do you know if there are any movements within this conservative element to have a more strict view of subscription?
 
I think in general the OPC is a very solid church. The only weakness I have observed regards the acceptance of the teachings of Norman Shepherd (the root of Federal Vision theology) within segments of the denomination. In fairness, I need to add that some of the staunchest opponents of Shepherdism/Federal Vision are in the OPC as well. I think the upcoming report on the various controversies will be very instructive about where the OPC is heading.

Also as KC said, having potential members subscribe to the Westminster Standards has never been a widespread practice in US Presbyterianism.
 
Originally posted by AdamM
Also as KC said, having potential members subscribe to the Westminster Standards has never been a widespread practice in US Presbyterianism.

Perhaps this is a weakness. There is nothing wrong with having a confessional membership; the church I attend does.

How does a church ensure the doctrinal purity of it's members beliefs if there is no subscription?

Moreover, how can a church be considered "solid" if it does not require it's own ministers to wholeheartedly subscribe to it's own Reformed confessions?
 
Originally posted by wsw201
I would agree with Kevin. The OPC is not in decline. Historically, the Presbyterian Curch has never asked a non-officer to subscribe to the Standards. As far as exceptions are concerned, each Presbytery and Session would have to consider the nature of the exception, but in general, the OPC is not like the PCA regarding subscription vows.

I was refering more to a declension of confessional orthodoxy rather than numbers.
 
As one who has never been a member of the OPC but has worshipped at OPC churches and read the writings of men like G.I. Williamson, I would say that the OPC is not all that different from the PCA. There is a diversity of views among elders and a diversity of practices and theology among congregations.

I am grateful for the Machen-Van Til-Murray heritage of the OPC. That is a strong heritage.

Today, there is much that is good in the OPC and, as noted with respect to Shepherd, etc., much that is to be concerned about.

Patrick and others could comment from greater first-hand experience.

When I worship at an OPC church, the one I visit holds to Exclusive Psalmody but that is rare in the OPC.

Our present PRC pulpit supply is still a member of the OPC, but for how long is a question. The Shepherd issue is a big concern of his, and there are many others.

I recommend reading the study guide to the Westminster Confession by G.I. Williamson. It's one of the best around. It tells you what he -- one of the most orthodox men in the OPC, In my humble opinion, although his stance on paedocommunion troubles me greatly -- thinks about the Confession. He is also, I believe, the editor of the Ordained Servant magazine and has commented on the subscription issue therein.
 
Perhaps this is a weakness. There is nothing wrong with having a confessional membership; the church I attend does.

How does a church ensure the doctrinal purity of it's members beliefs if there is no subscription?

Moreover, how can a church be considered "solid" if it does not require it's own ministers to wholeheartedly subscribe to it's own Reformed confessions?

If the Church required subscription to the Standards as requisite for membership then it would be locking the Church out of the church. Christ called His disciples to feed His sheep; not to lock them out with the wolves.

in my opinion, requiring subscription to the Standards as a requisite of membership is a dangerous position to take.



[Edited on 26-1-2005 by Dan....]
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Originally posted by wsw201
I would agree with Kevin. The OPC is not in decline. Historically, the Presbyterian Curch has never asked a non-officer to subscribe to the Standards. As far as exceptions are concerned, each Presbytery and Session would have to consider the nature of the exception, but in general, the OPC is not like the PCA regarding subscription vows.

I was refering more to a declension of confessional orthodoxy rather than numbers.

So was I. :)
 
Originally posted by Dan....

If the Church required subscription to the Standards as requisite for membership then it would be locking the Church out of the church. Christ called His disciples to feed His sheep; not to lock them out with the wolves.

in my opinion, requiring subscription to the Standards as a requisite of membership is a dangerous position to take.

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by Dan....]

It is for this reason we must take care to teach new people about the confessions before joining through preaching the confessions and private classes thereby "bringing them in."
 
Church membership vows and vows for church officers, in my view, ought not to be equally as comprehensive. A credible profession of faith -- as confirmed by simple vows dealing with salvation by faith in Christ alone and trusting the word of God -- along with baptism, is sufficient for church membership. Church officers are rightly held to a higher standard by vowing to uphold the confession or constitution of the church.
 
Wayne,

Since we're on the same page then I guess a good question to ask would be "What indicators are there that would prove that the OPC is going in the right direction?"
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Originally posted by Dan....

If the Church required subscription to the Standards as requisite for membership then it would be locking the Church out of the church. Christ called His disciples to feed His sheep; not to lock them out with the wolves.

in my opinion, requiring subscription to the Standards as a requisite of membership is a dangerous position to take.

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by Dan....]

It is for this reason we must take care to teach new people about the confessions before joining through preaching the confessions and private classes thereby "bringing them in."

I agree that members ought to be taught the full doctrines of the church in the form of membership classes. I would not make full subscription to a church confession a requirement for church membership, however.
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Church officers are rightly held to a higher standard by vowing to uphold the confession or constitution of the church.

How?

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking why it is that church officers should be held to a higher standard. I answer that it is because they are the guardians of orthodoxy in the church. Lay members are not guardians but they do agree to submit to the government and discipline of the church, ie., its constitution and its officers.
 
Where in scripture does it say that regular members are not guardians? If it is the case that they aren't, how does this exclude the notion of a confessional membership?
 
Where in scripture does it say that regular members are not guardians? If it is the case that they aren't, how does this exclude the notion of a confessional membership?

Do you mind if I turn the question around?

Where in the scriptures (or even in the Subordinate Standards) does it say that one must subscribe to the Standards to be included as a member?

I agree that new members should take membership classes in which the Standards are taught to them. However, the position that they must subscribe for membership is going beyond the Scriptures and the Standards of the Church.

As for the officers of the church, Titus 1:9 applies; hence subscription ought to be required.



[Edited on 26-1-2005 by Dan....]
 
Do persons cease to be disciples after they join the Church? Would we say that those who were baptized at Pentecost knew all the doctrine of the Church? They did join that day?

Or do we put off baptism until one is able to subscribe? For baptism is into the Church, not into limbo.
 
Originally posted by Dan....
Do you mind if I turn the question around?

Where in the scriptures (or even in the Subordinate Standards) does it say that one must subscribe to the Standards to be included as a member?

I agree that new members should take membership classes in which the Standards are taught to them. However, the position that they must subscribe for membership is going beyond the Scriptures and the Standards of the Church.

As for the officers of the church, Titus 1:9 applies; hence subscription ought to be required.

[Edited on 26-1-2005 by Dan....]

Touche.

However I don't see how any of this excludes a confessional membership. I guess this all has to do with the Presbyterian/Refomed difference with the nature of the true church (and yes there is a difference). But let's not go there, shall we?
 
I believe that church membership is rightly contingent upon a credible profession of faith and baptism, and not full subscription to every jot and title of the confession. My own subordinate standard describes the church this way:

The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children.

As much I would like to see every church member educated to believe orthodox doctrine on every point, we ought not to lay upon believers a requirement for church membership that exceeds the requirements of Scripture. Some are babes in Christ (indeed some are literally infants - how can they be expected to assent to a creed but should they not be baptized and considered part of the covenant family of God?) and some are mature, but all who are in Christ ought to be permitted to join the visible Church regardless of their full understanding or consent to subordinate standards.

Romans 10.9-10: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Do persons cease to be disciples after they join the Church? Would we say that those who were baptized at Pentecost knew all the doctrine of the Church? They did join that day?

Or do we put off baptism until one is able to subscribe? For baptism is into the Church, not into limbo.

Interesting questions.

Yes, the people were in the church once they were Baptised. However this does not mean that they didn't recieive ongoing disipleship throughout their remaining days in the church.
 
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
I believe that church membership is rightly contingent upon a credible profession of faith and baptism, and not full subscription to every jot and title of the confession. My own subordinate standard describes the church this way:

The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children.

As much I would like to see every church member educated to believe orthodox doctrine on every point, we ought not to lay upon believers a requirement for church membership that exceeds the requirements of Scripture. Some are babes in Christ (indeed some are literally infants - how can they be expected to assent to a creed but should they not be baptized and considered part of the covenant family of God?) and some are mature, but all who are in Christ ought to be permitted to join the visible Church regardless of their full understanding or consent to subordinate standards.

Romans 10.9-10: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I never said people who don't confess shouldn't be members. Members however should be professing, not just office bearers. I think that the church should make room for this throught a member's life, not just a pre-confession thing.
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Do persons cease to be disciples after they join the Church? Would we say that those who were baptized at Pentecost knew all the doctrine of the Church? They did join that day?

Or do we put off baptism until one is able to subscribe? For baptism is into the Church, not into limbo.

Interesting questions.

Yes, the people were in the church once they were Baptised. However this does not mean that they didn't recieive ongoing disipleship throughout their remaining days in the church.

And I don't disagree. The problem is, however, that if one were to require subscription before membership, even to something as short as the Apostle's Creed, the people in Acts 2 don't qualify for membership.

No one doubts that we teach and disciple in accordance with the Confession, and that we should not allow any old views in the Church; but that is different than subscription membership
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Wayne,

Since we're on the same page then I guess a good question to ask would be "What indicators are there that would prove that the OPC is going in the right direction?"

I think that the paper on NPP and FV will be one of the keys to see whether they are going in the right direction. As far as past evidence, I have seen nothing to indicate that they are proceeding in the wrong direction. Regarding the Shepherd situation, I have read Robertson's account of the OPC's Phil. Presbytery actions and it would appear to me that WTS PA had a lot to do with Shepherd not getting the boot, and even with that he only escaped by a few votes. Odds are that he would not have survived another trial, so he bolted to the CRC.
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
The fact that there's a problem with Auburnism casts doubt on the solidness of the OPC, In my humble opinion.

Actually "Auburnism" is associated with Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church PCA not OPC.
 
Originally posted by Richard B. Davis
Fred,

Given that all that we agree on, why is it wrong to have membership that is confessional and officers who are?

Because you then have to necessarily exclude from membership (and therefore baptism and the Lord's Supper) those that Christ died for - would we say that subscription to the Confession is necessary to go to heaven? - because they do not have a certain level of knowledge about the faith.

You make people members the way the Bible does, those who profess faith in Christ. You then disciple them in the faith, which is what is set forth in the Confession.
 
Richard:
I have some background in both the denominations you speak of. So I have an idea of the difference you're talking about. I would say, first of all, that in both denominations there is an onus on office-bearers to defend the faith the denomination subscribes to. This has nothing to do with personal exceptions. Exceptions exist in both denominations, but there is a difference in the view of formal unity within the denomination.

For example, the CanRC has only one Psalter in use in all its churches. This is an agreed policy for the denomination. But the OPC has no such agreement, but it rather takes the form of a suggestion. An individual church may opt for a hymnal other than the Trinity Hymnal. There is more individualism in the churches.

This also hold true for personal convictions. The respective denominations take different views on how this is determined. The CanRC holds a more uniform and formal approach, which would make FV-like isms more difficult to find root. But the OPC reacts more after the fact, with finally GA deciding on an FV-like ism after it has been circulated somewhat. In the CanRC this would likely be viewed as schismatic, since they hold a more formal uniformity within all the churches. In the OPC it is deemed as a healthy vitality, to some degree.

Of course, things like the justification issue gets a lot of publicity before GA makes a decision on it. But the general view is that it is not a negative effect on personal spirituality to explore ideas and to apply Scripture to them. So some things, like FV, etc., are deemed as formally legitimate until GA decides differently. This is the exception to subscription you are referring to, I think. So it seems a "before the fact" compared to "after the fact" type of comparison: the CanRC compared to the OPC respectively. Does this make sense?

In both denominations however, as I understand it, all office-bearers are called to defend the faith that the churches hold to, regardless of personal exceptions. The CanRC is more denominationally minded, so subscriptionism takes on a different form. It really is not possible for a church not to subscriptionist, as it is that they all are supposed to hold to the Bible, and no other teachings. So the OPC cannot, because of convention, hold to a subscriptionism like the CanRC without doing a major workover on a lot of other things. And I would not recommend that. Some things, I think, need a lot of work, but not its basis of operation like it is. These denominations need each other's different ways to keep a proper balance.

The reason I say this is because the CanRC is in danger at times of placing the denomination or the individual church at a level that minimizes individual membership. I know this has happened to a personal aquaintance of mine. But on the other hand, the OPC is in danger of allowing far too much personal leaway for office-bearers, as exampled by my situation. In both cases the situation turned very serious, but it did not have to. In the former case, it was a criticism of a denominational policy, and he was ostracized right out of the church for it. It was very poorly handled, but its just not done, to criticize the denomination, in the church where he was.

But in my case there is an unspoken licence, it seems, that a minister can preach as Scriptural teaching what is really only personal opinion or conviction. And to raise an objection to that causes wonderment and incredulity on the official level. I know its not the norm, but it clearly demonstrates the allowed variance from one denomination to another, from one kind of Reformed perspective to another. What I had to deal with simply would not have happened in the CanRC; it's just unthinkable. But on the other hand, what happened to a personal aquaintance of mine in the CanRC simply could not have happened in the OPC.

Both were wrong, in my estimation. But it showed the weakness of each system.

This is, in perspective, an entirely different thing than subscriptionism. I don't think that is the problem, though I think that the OPC could benefit from the formal subscriptionism of the CanRC-type. As well, the CanRC is quite a bit different than it used to be. Unity talks with the URC is very significant in that respect. In both denominations you will find that the membership qualifications are quite similar and unimposing. And in both denominations you will find the same determination and zeal for Scriptural soundness on the part of the office-bearers. The difference, it seems to me, is the view each has of the importance of the denomination, how she views herself as an expression of the one true, invisible church, and how that plays out in policy and practice.

These are just my observations. I don't claim any kind of authority on this. I now no longer think that mere subscriptionism for the OPC is the answer, though it may help. But I also like the direction the CanRC is going, with some concerns about some things. On the other hand, I see some very disquieting things going on in both denominations. So I share the concerns, though I may not put them in the same terms.
 
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