Taking People Out of Hell for a Time (??)

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Question: If people are in hell right now (and they are) when Christ judges at the Great White Throne, as is said, will he take people out of hell, give them new bodies, and then deliver them fully back into hell, or will they get new bodies while in hell?

The WCF seems a bit vague on this.

What are your thoughts?

 

[andreas]

Are they in hell or are they in the land of forgetfulness?

"Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalm 88:10-12

andreas.

 

[Bladestunner316]

Hmmm?

Sound's like a type of purgatory to em minus the getting people out of jail free.

I remeber being taught that there was a holding place like 'paradise' for believers before they go to heaven?

blade

 

[andreas]

For the believer,

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

For the unbeliever,

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:10,

THERE IS NOTHING,while they await judgment.

andreas.

 

[JWJ]

Originally posted by webmaster
Question: If people are in hell right now (and they are) when Christ judges at the Great White Throne, as is said, will he take people out of hell, give them new bodies, and then deliver them fully back into hell, or will they get new bodies while in hell?

The WCF seems a bit vague on this.

What are your thoughts?

Matt,

The answer depends on how one defines hell. You seem to be defining hell in very broad terms. The term hell as in the context of the white throne judgment and lake of fire is not a "œplace" where the reprobate are in now. The reprobate are in an intermediate state that only foreshadows hell consummated just as the saints are in a intermediate place that foreshadows heaven / kingdom consummated.

Jim

 

[Average Joey]

What about Ezekial 32:18-32?Keep in mind that hell here is not translated to mean the same word as gehenna.Does anybody know the best translation for it?Hades?I think it means a place(prison) to await judgment.



[Edited on 4-12-2005 by Average Joey]

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by webmaster
Question: If people are in hell right now (and they are) when Christ judges at the Great White Throne, as is said, will he take people out of hell, give them new bodies, and then deliver them fully back into hell, or will they get new bodies while in hell?

The WCF seems a bit vague on this.

What are your thoughts?

Matt,

Wouldn't ones definition of hell come in to play here? Right now, I guess I see the wicked (the dead ones) under some judgment, but their final sentence hasn't been passed. For example, anyone who does not believe God's wrath abides upon them. There is an element of judgment occuring now ("wrath abides", "the aroma of death"), occuring at their death ("appointed once to die..."), and finally at the resurrection of the body (Rev. 20:11-15):

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

So, the wicked have not been thrown into the "lake of fire", so I don't believe they are in Hell right now.

Help?

openairboy

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The Confession is very clear that there is no limbo for the souls of the wicked after death and before the Great Judgment. I think bodies are reunited with souls only on that Great Day:

CHAPTER XXXII.

Of the State of Man After Death,
and of the Resurrection of the Dead.

I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.

 

[kceaster]

I've always assumed that when this life is over, time doesn't exist. It is appointed once to die, and then the judgment. So, the souls that are right now in hell are there because time doesn't exist outside of this life. We would say now, but only because outside of this life, the judgment has already taken place.



In Christ,

KC

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by andreas
For the believer,

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

For the unbeliever,

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:10,

THERE IS NOTHING,while they await judgment.

andreas.

Then why does Jesus talk about the rich man being in hell, where he was in torment? (Luke 16:23).

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Exactly, and I doubt that Jesus would ever use false concepts in his parables to emphasize a point. The parable of the rich man and lazarus specifically gave a vision of the after life, directly from the lips of our Lord.

I see people go to all lengths to rationalize this parable especially the 7th days adventists, and they are always stuck with either

1. Using the Book of Ecclesiastes, eventhough the majority of the Book of Ecclesiastes were musings and philosopizings, which are only resolved until the last chapter, where the sum of life is to serve God.

2. By saying the parable in Luke is simply a parable. Heck even if it is wholly fiction and didn't occur, it would be unthinkable for Jesus to create fiction for a teaching demonstration knowing that there are false concepts involved in relation to an issue such as life after death.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Christ does not say that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

This is an interesting question to me overall. I'm still pondering the chain of events.

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by webmaster
Christ does not say that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

It's also interesting to note that IF this is a parable, it is the ONLY parable to use a personal name (i.e. Lazarus). It is always in other cases, "There was a king" etc. Therfore, I lean toward the view that this is a historical event, not a parable.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

thinking back on the Topic Sentence, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that it states that the Hell after death is much worse than the judgment and the Lake of Fire which proceeds it.
Going before a Judge and hearing ones faith is much more terror filled than being in jail. And being thrown into prison after being sentenced is much more convincing and convicting that being in a prison, not knowing your exact faith. But that is just my opinion.

Anyway I agree with you that Lazarus was not a parable, but parabalism is pushed on to it by deniers of the reality of the afterlife.

 

[Average Joey]

Again Ezekial 32:18-32.

[Edited on 4-12-2005 by Average Joey]

 

[openairboy]

Is hell the "lake of fire"? If not, then they aren't in hell yet. They are either in the "sea" or "death and hades". Right?

 

[Dan....]

I have a question for those who believe that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable....

...how is it that the (formerly) rich man is able to see clearly across the "great gulf fixed" that separates him from Abraham and Lazarus... so clearly, that he recognizes Lazarus and Abraham (whom he has never seen before but mysteriously recognizes) on the other side of the "great gulf" and not only sees them, but has the ability to hear and speak with them???

I don't know what the scriptures means by a "great gulf". The greatest gulf I've been to separates Florida from Mexico. Can you imagine if you were in Mexico on one side of the gulf looking across the gulf toward Florida and not only seeing and recognizing Scott Bushey, but having the ability to carry on a conversation with him??? That's amazing!

[Edited on 4-12-2005 by Dan....]

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by Dan....
I have a question for those who believe that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable....

...how is it that the (formerly) rich man is able to see clearly across the "great gulf fixed" that separates him from Abraham and Lazarus... so clearly, that he recognizes Lazarus and Abraham (whom he has never seen before but mysteriously recognizes) on the other side of the "great gulf" and not only sees them, but has the ability to hear and speak with them???

I don't know what the scriptures means by a "great gulf". The greatest gulf I've been to separates Florida from Mexico. Can you imagine if you were in Mexico on one side of the gulf looking across the gulf toward Florida and not only seeing and recognizing Scott Bushey, but having the ability to carry on a conversation with him??? That's amazing!

[Edited on 4-12-2005 by Dan....]

Whether or not it is a parable is not really relevant to the question. The point is that Jesus teaches personal, conscious suffering prior to the GWT Judgment.

 

[pastorway]

Luke 16 is not a parable and other texts can be used to demonstrate what happens to the lost when they die. If it were a parable Jesus would have identified it as such and communicated at least to the disciples what He was communicating to those with ears to hear.

Interestingly I have preached the last 2 weeks on this very topic. What happens to the believer and the lost after they die?

According to Scripture for the elect, to be absebt from the body is to be present with the Lord. For the lost man, it is to be in torments in hell. Conscious, suffering, aware of where he is and why he is there.

At the Great White Throne judgment, all those in hell are resurrected, given a new body, and condemned ot the lake of fire where they will be dying forever - the second death - forever dying but never finally dead.

In fact, the description in rev is that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. So this is different than hell. Hell is temporary. And when they are released from hell it is only to stand before God in all His wrath and be damned to the lake of fire forever.

Here are my notes from these two messages:

After Death
Hebrews 9:27

I. What happens to all men after death? - Hebrews 9:11-28

A. Death - when the soul departs the body
B. Judgment

1. No Second Chance for Grace
2. No Purgatory
3. No Soul Sleep

II. What happens to the elect after death? - 2 Cor 5:1-11; Phil 1:21-23

A. Absent from the Body = Present with the Lord
B. Carried by angels to the Throne of God - John 14:1-7; 1 Cor 15:42-58; Rev 4; 21-22
C. The judgment Seat of Christ - 1 Cor 3:9-15; Matt 25:31-40

III. What happens to the lost after death? - Luke 16:19-31

A. Hades - the place of the dead, hell
B. Suffering the wrath of God, not separation from Him - Matt 25:41-46
C. The Second Death in the Lake of Fire - Rev 20:11-15

The punishment of the wicked is described throughout Scripture as everlasting fire, unquenchable fire (Matt 3:12); shame and everlasting contempt ( Dan 12:2); a place where the worm does not die and he fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44-49); a place of torments and flame (Luke 16:23-24); everlastig destruction (2 Thess 1:9); a place of torment with fire and brimestone where the smoke of their torment ascends forever and everf (Rev 14:10-11); and finally a lake of fire and brimstone where the wicked are tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev 20:10).

Phillip

 

[kevin.carroll]

This whole line of discussion begs another question: Are we to understand the descriptions of hell as literal? Or are they biblical metaphors of eternal judgment?

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll
This whole line of discussion begs another question: Are we to understand the descriptions of hell as literal? Or are they biblical metaphors of eternal judgment?

Hell = eternal judgment

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by openairboy
Is hell the "lake of fire"? If not, then they aren't in hell yet. They are either in the "sea" or "death and hades". Right?

As heaven has levels, so does hell. Hell is not the lake of fire. Sinners in hell will eventually transitioned to the lake of fire at the judgment.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Hell is not literal fire or worms or darkness. They are metaphors to attempt to describe eternal punishment. Hell is standing before the holy presence of God without a mediator, in our own sins for all eternity. It is He who tramples the wicked down and stains His garments with their blood. Hell or His eternal wrath is the sinner being consumed in His holy presence for all eternity. And we will be able to see it. In Rev. the smoke goes up forever and everyone sees it and gives glory to God. A terrifying thought....

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by puritansailor
Hell is not literal fire or worms or darkness. They are metaphors to attempt to describe eternal punishment. Hell is standing before the holy presence of God without a mediator, in our own sins for all eternity. It is He who tramples the wicked down and stains His garments with their blood. Hell or His eternal wrath is the sinner being consumed in His holy presence for all eternity. And we will be able to see it. In Rev. the smoke goes up forever and everyone sees it and gives glory to God. A terrifying thought....

Patrick,
Am I understanding you correctly? You don't believe Hell will have literal fire? Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that the scriptures are only speaking metaphorically?

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Patrick,
Am I understanding you correctly? You don't believe Hell will have literal fire? Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that the scriptures are only speaking metaphorically?

At the risk of speaking for him, he probably views it as a metaphor in the same sense that the New Jerusalem is a metaphor...Is a hell a place of literal fire, that is a place of eternal, rapid oxidation? I don't know. But it is an image which our minds can understand...and, in any event, it does speak of literal, eternal torment.

 

[Average Joey]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Patrick,
Am I understanding you correctly? You don't believe Hell will have literal fire? Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that the scriptures are only speaking metaphorically?

At the risk of speaking for him, he probably views it as a metaphor in the same sense that the New Jerusalem is a metaphor...Is a hell a place of literal fire, that is a place of eternal, rapid oxidation? I don't know. But it is an image which our minds can understand...and, in any event, it does speak of literal, eternal torment.

We can also use 1st Corinthians 2:9 with an opposite effect for the lost.

1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We could change love into hate in that verse for the lost.

 

[JWJ]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by puritansailor
Hell is not literal fire or worms or darkness. They are metaphors to attempt to describe eternal punishment. Hell is standing before the holy presence of God without a mediator, in our own sins for all eternity. It is He who tramples the wicked down and stains His garments with their blood. Hell or His eternal wrath is the sinner being consumed in His holy presence for all eternity. And we will be able to see it. In Rev. the smoke goes up forever and everyone sees it and gives glory to God. A terrifying thought....

Patrick,
Am I understanding you correctly? You don't believe Hell will have literal fire? Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that the scriptures are only speaking metaphorically?

Scott,

I am with Patrick on this one. Hell / eternal punishment is described metaphorically in the Bible various ways. Obviously a literal reading of hell = fire does not fit with hell = darkness,

Jim

 

[VanVos]

I agree that metaphorical language is used in the bible to describe hell because it is a mode of existence the reprobate man will not experience until death. What we do know for sure is that hell is place of God's wrath John 3:36

Getting back to the original question of whether or not the reprobate will be resurrected on judgment day, I think John 5:28-30 clearly teaches this.

......For hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves.....

VanVos

[Edited on 4-14-2005 by VanVos]

 

[andreas]

Kevin,

I am not denying the existence of hell. All i am saying is that, the unbelievers await judgment,and after that, the punishment,but till the judgment day they await in silence.

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD." Psalm 115:17-18

"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes9:4-5
andreas.

 

[Scott Bushey]

I don't know that I am sold on the solely metaphorical position. Men will have fleshly bodies. Jesus is in the flesh. We do not have metaphorical bodies. Why is it such a leap to imagine a fire that does not burn out?

[Edited on 4-14-2005 by Scott Bushey]