Steve Lawson, Repentance and Schaeffers quote

[Steve Burden Bearers]

So I really am trying to first ask #1. if anyone can cite, source and then give the actual quote from Francis Schaeffers regarding the fact that sadly "we as believers secretly find joy when brothers or sisters fail or stumble. Then in light of the recent news regarding Steve Lawson, how do we consider durations of time before reinstating teaching ministries in light of our Lords reinstatement of Peter, an Apostle within days of His resurrection? Not looking for per se additional examples with other sin failures throughout all the scriptures, but understanding our Lords use of broken saints that find repentance, and then their continued use in this world? What is the difference and/or application between vessels of honor and dishonor in the grand scheme?

 

[Polanus1561]

On paper, isn’t it easier for a Baptist to be restored in this situation? A local church willing to is all needed. Whereas a Presbyterian needs a whole General Assembly etc

 

[David Taylor]

Here is a question though, and not necessarily regarding Dr. Lawson though it applies to him, is there a difference in a teaching ministry vs. a pastoral ministry?

If we look at the example of David, correct, he was not a pastor nor a priest. He was a king. But he did teach. Obviously much of the Book of Psalms is from his pen.

In that famous Psalm of repentance, Psalm 51, David does say that, after restoration, he would teach again (v. 13). So, and again not speaking of Lawson specifically, should we consider that while pastoral ministry, and the official offices in the church are definitely not an option, that ministry in public is not necessarily off of the table. Does that make sense?

 

[Ed Walsh]

Then in light of the recent news regarding Steve Lawson, how do we consider durations of time before reinstating teaching ministries in light of our Lords reinstatement of Peter, an Apostle within days of His resurrection?

I think it was Spurgeon that said, "When the repentance is as notorious as the sin, then it may be the time to restore such a one to the ministry."

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Would Romans 11:29 belong in this discussion?

 

[Ed Walsh]

Would Romans 11:29 belong in this discussion?

Yes.

 

[Edward]

At least a lot more facts have come out today, so less room for baseless speculation and Ninth Commandment violations.

 

[De Jager]

Here is a question though, and not necessarily regarding Dr. Lawson though it applies to him, is there a difference in a teaching ministry vs. a pastoral ministry?

If we look at the example of David, correct, he was not a pastor nor a priest. He was a king. But he did teach. Obviously much of the Book of Psalms is from his pen.

In that famous Psalm of repentance, Psalm 51, David does say that, after restoration, he would teach again (v. 13). So, and again not speaking of Lawson specifically, should we consider that while pastoral ministry, and the official offices in the church are definitely not an option, that ministry in public is not necessarily off of the table. Does that make sense?

The exception (David) doesn't negate the rule. The rule is that an overseer must be "able to teach", and also "above reproach". If he is not above reproach, it doesn't matter if he is able to teach.

 

[David Taylor]

The exception (David) doesn't negate the rule. The rule is that an overseer must be "able to teach", and also "above reproach". If he is not above reproach, it doesn't matter if he is able to teach.

That wasn’t my question though. I agree the person would be disqualified from being an overseer or an elder or deacon. The question was does it disqualify them to teach in any capacity.

 

[Ulster Fry]

What benefit would there be in having such a person teach again in any capacity? Trust has been irreparably broken. His presence would tarnish whatever institution he is associated with.

Part of the repentance ought to be a personal acknowledgement of being unfit to teach in any capacity. Anything less than that is suspicious.

I also think comparisons to Peter, David, etc., are unwise. Those men were specifically used in God's revelatory history of redemption.

 

[Alive in Christ]

In my greetings thread, I mentioned the preachers whose preaching most impacted my life - the first person I named was Steve Lawson. It was his preaching more than any other that led to my conversion, and perhaps only RC Sproul had more to do with why I am soteriologically reformed. The man was massively influential to me. When I first heard the news a few days ago, it was like a punch right to the stomach. It is devastating news. Since that time, I have had time to really think about it, and especially in light of the more recent news that has come out, it doesn't look good.

Of course I wanted to try and minimize the seriousness of it in my own mind, just as I have seen so many people do. It is easy to tell myself that we all sin, and that Lawson had a stumble but the love of Christ is greater. But the truth is far more grim, unfortunately. This is a man that should have known better. And he kept this thing a secret for several years, and he was forced into confessing it. I can't help but remember what became of the angels in the days of Noah who failed to maintain their proper place, and lusted after strange flesh - they have not been allowed back into God's presence. How much more privileged was Lawson? Angels are not allowed to look into such a great salvation. Also in my mind is the fact that sexual sin is the reason that human flesh has already felt the fiery wrath of God, and the land of Sodom to this day is desolate, and nothing alive will ever dwell therein - and of course, the people of those cities did not have the Gospel that Lawson preached. I am not trying to be dramatic with all this, but I feel it's important that I keep in mind just how terrible this really is, in light of what God's Word teaches. It is a very dangerous thing.

Lawson has given evidence that he does not know Christ. Now whether or not he is known by Christ, I cannot say. But he has denied the faith. But the good news is that Christ cannot deny Himself. If Lawson is Christ's, he will repent and turn back onto the narrow path. And that's my prayer - that Lawson repent, and turn back. He needs our prayers right now. There is no doubt he is experiencing a terrible sifting - tribulation unlike he has ever experienced before. I hope and pray his faith was genuine.

 

[alexanderjames]

At least a lot more facts have come out today, so less room for baseless speculation and Ninth Commandment violations.

From what I understand the public is still largely in the dark regarding any specific details, aside from there being some kind of “inappropriate relationship” with a young woman for a number of years. Am I getting that right?

Of course I wanted to try and minimize the seriousness of it in my own mind

I appreciate this too.
Nevertheless I still question whether such a statement that he has given evidence that he does not know Christ is one that should be made at this point.

 

[Polanus1561]

In reality - the possibility of a church using a scandalized man in public teaching again just doesn't happen, does it? No point discussing the possibility of this if so, but that is my opinion.

Unless you are talking about a parachurch ministry. But which ministry would risk donor funds with such a teacher? Is this teacher so special?

The wonderful thing about Reformed theology is that none of us are special. None of us are truly original. People can easily replace us after death.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I appreciate this too.
Nevertheless I still question whether such a statement that he has given evidence that he does not know Christ is one that should be made at this point.

I am sorry if I failed to articulate my point. I guess what I mean is that when we continue in sin, we deny that we know Christ - not necessarily that Christ doesn't know us. The Bible teaches that he who sins without repenting has never known Him, and that's true inasmuch as that person remains in sin. So what better way to deny that we know Jesus then to continue in our sin. Lawson has been in this sin for the last five years, and he was able to keep it hidden, and preach the Gospel, and look the part, all the while continually engaging in it. That is tantamount to saying, "I do not know the man." Whether or not Lawson has pulled a Judas and sold Christ for the world, only God knows. But he has certainly denied knowing Jesus.

 

[David Taylor]

What benefit would there be in having such a person teach again in any capacity? Trust has been irreparably broken. His presence would tarnish whatever institution he is associated with.

Part of the repentance ought to be a personal acknowledgement of being unfit to teach in any capacity. Anything less than that is suspicious.

I also think comparisons to Peter, David, etc., are unwise. Those men were specifically used in God's revelatory history of redemption.

I’m not sure that is what Scripture actually teaches though. Again, definitely for church officers but I’m not sure it goes so far as to say any teaching or ministry of any kind. And I get the point of Peter and David and revelatory redemption but to also dismiss their examples is wrong as well.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

That wasn’t my question though. I agree the person would be disqualified from being an overseer or an elder or deacon. The question was does it disqualify them to teach in any capacity.

"My brethren, be not many masters [teachers], knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." - James 3:1

 

[Ulster Fry]

I’m not sure that is what Scripture actually teaches though. Again, definitely for church officers but I’m not sure it goes so far as to say any teaching or ministry of any kind. And I get the point of Peter and David and revelatory redemption but to also dismiss their examples is wrong as well.

I’m not sure what your point is. Do you think that truths can only be what Scripture ‘actually teaches’? Scripture doesn’t teach that convicted pedophiles should have responsibility over children, but I think we can use our common sense to know that is a bad idea, to say the least.

My argument is fairly straightforward. Teaching requires responsibility. Responsibility requires trust. If the teacher has shown he cannot be trusted, then he has shown himself to be unfit for teaching. Especially when we are talking about teaching Scripture/theology.

So I reiterate, what benefit would there be in having such a person teach again? Why would any institution want to have that association? I’m not sure what other capacity you want to include here.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

In reality - the possibility of a church using a scandalized man in public teaching again just doesn't happen, does it?

I'm sorry, but are you being ironic here? I can't tell. In any case, it's very much true that certain churches have in fact used scandalized men in public teaching again. In fact, it happens frequently enough that it's rather embarrassing.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Lawson should absolutely be disqualified from public ministry from here on out. The Apostle Paul handed down to us the qualifications for an elder. They include being "above reproach" (Titus 1:7, 1 Timothy 3:2), and being "well thought of by outsiders" (1 Timothy 3:7). So if he did resume public ministry, every time he preached the Gospel to the world, he would undermine the Gospel in the eyes of the world and make it a farce.

And as for the flock, how would we know if he ever started sinning again? It will ever be in our minds just how good he was at hiding it. Who can trust him ever again?

 

[Edward]

In reality - the possibility of a church using a scandalized man in public teaching again just doesn't happen, does it? No point discussing the possibility of this if so, but that is my opinion.

TT lost his job at one church, got quickly hired at another church in the same denomination, got fired from it when another prior act of misconduct came to light, and has now established an independent church that seemed to be doing quite well last time I looked.

Note to all - happy to edit if I got a detail wrong.

If you can bring in the money, you can find work somewhere.

From what I understand the public is still largely in the dark regarding any specific details,

Fair number of details out there. Not my post, but it appears they've been moderated from this thread. So I'm going to leave it where it is here. I had seen it elsewhere on the internet before making my post.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Devolved into another Lawson thread. Thread closed.