Saved, then going into an Arminian church

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MMasztal

MMasztal

Puritan Board Sophomore
As a pretext. I believe Arminianism is heresy.

Here's a situation.

Suppose an individual becomes a believer. Realizing that something has happened the young Christian, not knowing any theology, proceeds to join an Arminian church. Since theological study tends not to be a focus of these churches, the individual remains there satisfied with the preaching he hears.

Suppose also that this individual is not either encouraged from others or self motivated to delve into academic Bible study where they might find the truth.

They die shortly later, never discovering the salvation truth yet still trusting in Christ for salvation.

My question. If a person is truly saved, why would not the Holy Spirit direct that person to a church preaching and teaching the truth? Is it that maybe the person wasn't really saved? Should that person have taken the time to study the Scriptures and discover the doctrines of grace? See the dilemna?

I thank the Lord that I was led to an Orthodox Presbyterian Church after my regeneration.
 
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I look at it exactly as Herman Hoeksema alomost 100 years ago.

'You know, a Calvinist (excuse the term; I am not any too fond of it myself. Never do I use it if I can help it. I don't think I have used it a half dozen times from the pulpit, which is not very frequent in three years and a half), I say a Calvinist is after all a distinctive Christian. Not all Christians are Calvinists. Mark, I say: "not all Christians are Calvinists." They may be Christians all right. Sure! Dear children of God, with whom I love to shake hands. I don't believe that there is a Calvinist that denies this. I don't think that there is a Calvinist who maintains that the Calvinists are the only Christians. And those who love to waste paper (and that in this time when paper is so valuable!) by fighting against Calvinists who maintain that they are the only Christians on earth, are fighting a shadow, a product of their own imagination. No, but I claim that a Calvinist is a Christian of a distinctive type, with distinctive principles and views, in distinction, namely, from other Christians. Never let any method of reasoning lead you to the belief that all Christians are Calvinists, for then things will be getting so dark, that you lose all power to distinguish. The Methodist is a good sincere Christian, all right. Of course he is! A dear brother. But he is not a Calvinist. The same is true of the Anabaptist, the Lutheran, etc. All together they constitute the church of Jesus Christ on earth, as long as they confess that Jesus is the Christ. But within that large circle there are different shades and forms of faith, and the Calvinist also maintains his own distinctive world and life view in their midst. Now, what I mean to say is that to maintain your distinctive character as a Calvinistic Christian, you must not merely be able to discern clearly what distinguishes you from the rest, but you must have the courage of your conviction such as can be the fruit only of the faith in the Word of God. Only the conviction that our form of faith is the purest expression of Scripture (again, mark, I do not say: the only form or expression) can give us the courage to refuse amalgamation. And therefore, it is necessary, that we are conscious of the relation between our Reformed Faith and the Word of God.'
 
I don't think that the Holy Spirit directs people to a specific church. We are to attend a church where the gospel is preached, if you trust in Christ alone for your salvation then you are saved no matter what 'Church' you attend.
 
What is a true faith?

Not only a certain knowledge, but an assured confidence...

If one has no knowledge, what does one then believe?
 
I remained in the Roman Church for several years after my conversion. I was ordained as a minister in the Churches of Christ (Campbellites) and stayed in it until the Lord led me to the PCA, where I am now a teaching elder. I was always searching the Scriptures and never fully comfortable with the heresies I was sitting under in both of these groups. One can certainly be an Arminian and be converted and many godly people are in false churches, but the Holy Spirit is always at work. Luther and Calvin were certainly under the Roman cult, but what an amazing work they did in bringing Reformation.
 
I think the underlying question is this:

Just how much knowledge is neccessary for salvation. And also this: How diluted can the Gospel be before it is is not the Gospel and is therefore not saving.

Where do we draw our lines and build our fences. Some in our circles draw our lines and build our fences can restrictively. I myself like Hoeksema's quote above.


I would assert that many saved Christians abide in arminian churches and that many are saved under their ministries and quite a few PBers here - if we were to check it - were saved in arminian cirlces before "advancing" to the calvinisitic stage...at which point some of them state that they never were saved at all because dsicovering the doctrines of grace is like being born again....well, again.
 
And that is indeed a valid question, how much knowledge is necesssary. I tied into the OP mentioning 'no theological knowledge', as opposed to 'little theological knowledge'.

Suppose, at minimum, one should know the apostle's creed? And be able to confess at least that?

And yes, I do also like Hoeksema's statement regarding Calvinism. As the apostle Paul also stated regarding "I am of Paul, etc". We do not follow the person, we follow Christ.
 
Yes, the OP said "...not knowing any theology"

That is a stretch.

Arminians know that Jesus is the God man, the second person of the Trinity who came and died for sins and that those who exercise faith and repentance are saved. They often mess up on the particular mechanics, but they do know some basic theology...
 
MMasztal said:
As a pretext. I believe Arminianism is heresy.

Here's a situation.

Suppose an individual becomes a believer. Realizing that something has happened the young Christian, not knowing any theology, proceeds to join an Arminian church. Since theological study tends not to be a focus of these churches, the individual remains there satisfied with the preaching he hears.

Suppose also that this individual is not either encouraged from others or self motivated to delve into academic Bible study where they might find the truth.

They die shortly later, never discovering the salvation truth yet still trusting in Christ for salvation.

My question. If a person is truly saved, why would not the Holy Spirit direct that person to a church preaching and teaching the truth? Is it that maybe the person wasn't really saved? Should that person have taken the time to study the Scriptures and discover the doctrines of grace? See the dilemna?

I thank the Lord that I was led to an Orthodox Presbyterian Church after my regeneration.
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You're probably talking about half of the Puritanboard!

I was converted while I was attending a liberal Presbyterian church. My pastor was possibly Barthinian but somehow managed to say all the right things. I got involved in a para-church organization and started attending the more evangelical and arminian churches.

It worked for awhile. But I never lasted very long in one church. Eventually I heard all they had to offer and found myself moving on. The para-church thing did encourage me to study the Word on my own, which I did, even after I left that gig. It was my own study of God's word and the help of a close friend and colleague that led me to the reformed understanding and the ministry that I needed to be under.
 
Pergamum said:
I think the underlying question is this:

Just how much knowledge is neccessary for salvation. And also this: How diluted can the Gospel be before it is is not the Gospel and is therefore not saving.

Where do we draw our lines and build our fences. Some in our circles draw our lines and build our fences can restrictively. I myself like Hoeksema's quote above.


I would assert that many saved Christians abide in arminian churches and that many are saved under their ministries and quite a few PBers here - if we were to check it - were saved in arminian cirlces before "advancing" to the calvinisitic stage...at which point some of them state that they never were saved at all because dsicovering the doctrines of grace is like being born again....well, again.
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I have searched the scriptures very hard on this subject because I monopolized heaven for me and a very few others at one time, and saw absolutely no growth in my spiritual life. What I find in the writ is only 2 examples. 1) Those who deny Jesus is the Christ are antichrists, and 2) Paul's divine condmenation of Legalism/work's salvation/judaizers. If there are morei cannot find them anymore.
 
Let me throw in another wrench.

What if the person attending an Arminian church should learn the truths of the Reformed faith continues to sit under the heretical tutelage say because his friends go to church there?

Is it the responsility of that person to find a church preaching correct doctrine?

I'm asking because we have a neighborhood bible study and a person who faithfully attends a Methodist church has come under the realization of Calvinism after our study of Romans. Yet he is reluctant to leave the Methodists because he has many friends there.

How might I counsel him?
 
Why is he going to church?

Is it to worship God, or is it to socialize with friends?

In other words, which worship does he find is more God-pleasing?
 
I think it is his duty to seek out the best preaching possible. But, these things take time and there are competing duties to his networks of friends and family there too. He might serve God well staying in his position for awhile and not making any hasty departures.
 
We were in a charismatic church for a few years after we embraced the doctrines of grace. We were never comfortable however. We were constantly measuring what our pastor said against the 5 points and finding problems. We finally could not stand it and my husband said we can't keep our kids under this teaching or they will be messed up.

I daresay if someone found out we were Calvinists and going to that church they would have thought it strange, but we were in transition. If someone is seeking knowledge because their heart is changed they will find it. He will not give us a stone.
 
Pergamum said:
Yes, the OP said "...not knowing any theology"

That is a stretch.

Arminians know that Jesus is the God man, the second person of the Trinity who came and died for sins and that those who exercise faith and repentance are saved. They often mess up on the particular mechanics, but they do know some basic theology...
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I agree with this. Many true, sincere, knowledgeable believers never leave their Arminian roots. C.S. Lewis is one example. My father in-law, who is very well-versed in theology (and sincerely open-minded to Calvinism), along with being director of a mission in Western Europe, is another. The Holy Spirit obviously works in different ways in different people, and I don't believe that not eventually embracing Calvinism or a church that subscribes to the 5 points implies a lack of faith or a weak relationship with Christ.

So, to answer the original question, the Holy Spirit may lead some away from their Arminian roots, but not all (for whatever reason). And remaining Arminian doesn't necessarily imply a weak or questionable faith...
 
MMasztal said:
Yet he is reluctant to leave the Methodists because he has many friends there.
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"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
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I left a fraternity which I devoted my life to, in whom I had my only friends in college. Out of 30 to 40 men, 2 or 3 of them will still aknowledge my existence. I have two tattoos on my body to remind me of the glaring godlessness I was in prior to my conversion and they will never go away short of expensive surgery.

This man is in a far less extreme situation. I left my situation because of my own conversion, he is merely faced with doctrinal differences. It is not as if these people will not still be his friends or brothers and sisters. They will and if they won't, then there's no loss in losing them anyway. It is unwise to sit under teaching in which one is not fed, or which preaches heresey. I assert that what is taught in Methodist churches today is heresey at worst, and at best, theologically shallow. Soon, he will begin to choke on the milk that is offered there. It cannot sustain a mature believer and he will starve.

My :2cents:
 
MMasztal said:
Let me throw in another wrench.

What if the person attending an Arminian church should learn the truths of the Reformed faith continues to sit under the heretical tutelage say because his friends go to church there?

Is it the responsility of that person to find a church preaching correct doctrine?

I'm asking because we have a neighborhood bible study and a person who faithfully attends a Methodist church has come under the realization of Calvinism after our study of Romans. Yet he is reluctant to leave the Methodists because he has many friends there.

How might I counsel him?
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He should find another church and you should be patient.

(Brother, please know I say that in love and not with any condescension in my tone.)

Ask yourself: When did you have your first taste of steak? When you were a few weeks old? Or when you were a few years old? It may be that your friend has come to the realization that Calvinism is correct, but it also may take quite a while to wean him off his milk, be it false doctrine, practice or fellowship.
 
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6 ESV

This verse popped into my head when I started reading this thread. What God has started, He has promised to complete. We need to be there to urge our brothers and sisters along in the faith, to point them in the right direction. As has already been expressed here, patience is important. When I look back and think of the places that God has taken me over the years, I marvel that I'm here at all.

What Jesus meant to complete in life of the thief on the cross was done the day he died and entered paradise. He did not even have an opportunity to go to church or show what his theological position was.

For many our journey is long a crazy and seemingly crooked path, but if we are His, we will get where He means for us to be in His perfect way and His time.
 
Some Arminian churches proclaim that Jesus was punished for the sins of other people, that He rose from the dead, that Jesus alone saves people from their sins, that man has no righteousness of his own and that man contributes nothing to his justification. Suppose a new Christian is in one of those churches and learns Reformed soteriology. He will eventually learn that the church he is in denies the five points of Calvinism. He will realize that it is inconsistent to believe that man contributes nothing to his justification and at the same time deny all five points of Calvinism.
 
Let me stop this thread in its tracks. The OP states that Arminianism is a heresy. Heresy is akin to being anathema; outside of Christ and accursed. Let's define what is meant by Arminian. It is my contention that many churches that are labeled "Arminian" are not historical Arminians. These churches are in error but I would be careful to throw out the label of heresy. Heresy is not a by word. It needs to be weighed carefully and used sparingly. As a rule I am going to put the burden of proof in all posts that make the accusation of heresy on the poster. In other words, be prepared to provide irrefutable evidence.
 
Nevertheless, at first, I had thoughts of carefully avoiding the use of the appellation Arminian in this treatise. But I soon found I should be put to great difficulty by it; and that my discourse would be so encumbered with an often-repeated circumlocution, instead of a name, which would express the thing intended as well and better, that I altered my purpose. And therefore I must ask the excuse of such as are apt to be offended with things of this nature, that I have so freely used the term Arminian in the following discourse... But, lest I should really be an occasion of injury to some persons, I would here give notice, that though I generally speak of that doctrine, concerning free will and moral agency, which I oppose, as Arminian doctrine; yet I would not be understood as asserting, that every divine or author whom I have occasion to mention as maintaining that doctrine, was properly an Arminian, or one of that sort which is commonly called by that name...
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Jonathan Edwards, Preface to The Freedom of the Will.

I cite this to say this; simply because one throws the term Arminian around, doesn't mean that they are accusing a church or pastor of holding to the five points of the Arminius followers. We, as Edwards, use the term to describe the doctrine of "free will and moral agency" that is most aptly described in Arminianism.
 
The situation you pose is exactly what I experienced, Michael. Saved, but in an Arminian church. Why? There were no other kinds of churches in the area. (Not real ones, anyway.) However, my husband and I studied and prayed and read and talked and visited Grand Rapids - and over the course of a decade or so, were led to the truth: the doctrines of grace. Well, but there was still the issue of "no good churches" around here. We'd make the trip to GR once a month, but it's a long haul... No churches in GR were interested in coming here and so I got on the phone and started making calls. The FCoS [Cont.] was kind enough to respond, and here we are today, with a congregation. (It wasn't quite that easy; I've spent the last 14 months working on it. But it has happened.) The Lord blessed us immeasurably. He will never leave His people scattered... And we were scattered for a season.

Had we not been able to get this church going, certainly, we would have still been saved, but unsettled. We were attending a (vaguely) Reformed, totally independent Baptist church, but we were not happy and knew we could never join it. Whatever. The Lord, in His grace, mercy and love, provided for us.

We face the situation of attendance at an Arminian church as to our adult child. We are waiting for the Lord to lead and to provide... Patience in waiting on God to work is the order of the day, as is fervent prayer.

Charges of heresy against others... no... I didn't bring myself to a staunchly Reformed position; the Lord did that. I will wait for His work on others and be content with what He does.

What He has done so far is so much more than I could ever have expected, say, 16 years or so ago... It's His church, and these are His people -- and what could be better than just resting in that knowledge?
 
It is a wrong focus to ask how much knowledge is enough saving knowledge. It doesn't take into account the fact that faith is organic. What you believe today has consequences for tomorrow because as you act on your beliefs you become more firm in them; as a growing tree becomes harder to uproot. So here is the dimemma with regard to Arminian "churches" -- either the person doesn't grow under the false teaching of the church and remains a babe, or the person grows under the false teaching and becomes hardened in the free-will, do-it-yourself mentality. Either way, the Scriptures have something to say to rebuke it.

Arminianism isn't one stage of the Christian faith, and Calvinism a progressive stage. Calvinism preaches and teaches the gospel. Arminianism -- considered solely as a teaching -- corrupts the gospel. There is no such thing as an "Arminian convert" who is truly saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. If a person is saved as an Arminian it is despite his Arminianism, not because of it. What he believes as an Arminian is in fact dangerous to his "faith." While he believes as an Arminian he can have no true assurance. It is therefore in his best interests to renounce Arminianism immediately and embrace the uncorrupted gospel as taught by Calvinism.
 
Please note that the following is not an accusation against anyone.

I wonder (aloud): how many people do we know have embraced sovereign grace through anathemas and bullying?

This is not to say that there aren't appropriate exhortations, censures and even rebukes that may be necessary. But sovereign grace is learned and received by grace. We are all disciples, and we are all growing in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Let us be patient with others remembering that God had great patience with us.
 
I think there is a tendency to label anything that is not Calvinistic as Arminian. That's not always right.

Classic Arminianism was at least thought out, albeit incorrectly.

Nowadays it seems like most American Churches (at least the ones I know) are more Fundamentalist-ic, without much thought or doctrine, rather being decidedly, doctrinally Armenian.

When I was not a "Calvinist" I wasn't exactly an Armenian either, I was somewhere between. When I started studying the Doctrines of Grace I realized it wasn't that I thought wrongly about several of the points, it was, that I hadn't thought about them at all.

Using a blanket label of "Heretic" for non-Reformed folks is bad "Doctrine" :smug:
 
An Arminian may not hold to the doctrines of grace but that same Arminian is held by them.
 
Amen!!

Seb said:
Using a blanket label of "Heretic" for non-Reformed folks is bad "Doctrine" :smug:
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:2cents: Most of the people that I know who are really excited about being Reformed were born-again in "Arminian" Churches. That would include the two of us brother. :agree:
 
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