Sabbath Duration

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Bondman

Puritan Board Freshman
Does anyone observe the Lord's Day from Saturday evening until Sunday evening.

evening = sunset

I'm presuming most observe only Sunday.

My pastor recently expressed a view about the Lord's Day being only Sunday day and not the evening.

Any thoughts? Articles?
 
Matt -- Like most issues, there is not a consenus on the Puritan Board about when the Lord's Day begins and ends. However, the majority of Reformed and Puritan Christians have held to a Sabbath duration of midnight-to-midnight as taught by the Bible. Below are links to a couple of threads in which I have provided some resources that might be helpful in studying this issue further. God bless!

When does the Lord's Day begin?

When does the Sabbath Day Begin/End Revisited
 
Matt,

I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his Theses Sabbaticae. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.
 
Matt,

I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his Theses Sabbaticae. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.


So I could've gone to that Superbowl party tonight?!
:lol:
 
I just read through this thread that Andrew posted.
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=16253
I am also studying the subject and desire to serve our great God in everything according to His Word. After reading that thread I can see I may have a long road ahead. I pray this thread will be a blessing to all. Thanks for the posts Greg and Andrew.
I am also wondering what conclusions Jeff Bartel has made...:)
 
Matt,

I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his Theses Sabbaticae. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.

So I could've gone to that Superbowl party tonight?!
:lol:

In the annual Super Bowl vs Sabbath thread a couple of years ago this idea came up. This was followed an oops moment when the poster was asked what they do on Saturday evening!
 
I am also wondering what conclusions Jeff Bartel has made...:)

:lol: I wouldn't take to much stock in my opinion! But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.
 
Just out of interest, do you guys believe the Sabbath prohibits the watching of TV on a Sunday?

Yes. The only thing I will ever watch is something like the Amazing Grace DVD (not at all endorsing the images BTW) or a Psalm instruction DVD. Both of these are VERY rare for me on the Sabbath though.
 
Jeff_Bartel;

But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.

Why midnight to midnight?

24 hours could be from sundown to sundown...which is what appears to be the case..

Early observance of the Sabbath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath

It is known that Gentile Christians sometimes openly observed the Biblical Sabbath in conjunction with first-day Sunday worship, because the Council of Laodicea [1] around AD 365 attempted to put a stop to the practice. Some conjecture, then, that prior to the Laodicean council Saturday was observed as a Sabbath and Sunday as a day of worship, primarily in Palestine; but after the Laodicean Council, resting on the Sabbath was forbidden. In Early Christianity, the first Christians were Jews and Jewish Proselytes, who on the weight of Biblical evidence (such as Acts 3:1; 5:27-42; 21:18-26; 24:5; 24:14; 28:22), are usually assumed to have kept the Jewish customs, including the observations of the Sabbath from Friday's sunset to Saturday's sunset. These Christians are sometimes referred to as Jewish Christians. This practice may have continued at least until Herod's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 or the city was renamed Aelia Capitolina in AD 135. According to Eusebius' History of the Church Book IV, chapter V, verses 3-4 the first 15 Bishops of Jerusalem were "of the circumcision". There is evidence that even Gentile Christians also observed the Biblical Sabbath, many centuries into the Christian Era, and even up to the present time. At the same time, a widespread Christian tradition, from early on, was to also meet for worship on the first day of the week, Sunday.
 
PresReformed;

Sundown to sundown is 24 hours, and the Confession says nothing about a day running from midnight to midnight.

yes, my wording was off in saying 'could be'.

Which is why I was wondering why Jeff holds to the Midnight to Midnight as the Sabbath, per his quote.


But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.
 
The Lord's Day

The Lord's Day is the 1st day of the week and is from the resurrection of Christ forward.

If it were supposed to be sundown to sundown, why did Christ not rise from the dead on the evening prior to the 1st day of the week. Or for that matter, why didn't the women go hurrying out to the tomb in the dusk? Why did they wait until morning.

Why did Paul continue preaching so late at night on the Lord's Day (Acts 20)? In fact, he even went past midnight and people stayed on. He didn't cut it short when the sun went down so that everybody could get home to begin the 2nd day of the week.
 
Of course, and just thinking here, it might be more important to think about how to cultivate a love for the Lord's Day, and how to spend the day in works of mercy and piety (more than just worship and a nap) than to get twisted around the axle of which form of the day it is. I can't imagine why an pastor would be anything but pleased by anyone who tried to Biblically keep the Lord's Day - whether it was sundown to sundown or midnight to midnight.
 
Why midnight to midnight?

24 hours could be from sundown to sundown...which is what appears to be the case..

I believe that the resources cited for the 24 hour view were very persuasive in the thread When does the Sabbath Day Begin/End Revisited. I also think that given Ussher and Gouge's testimony give an insight as to the Westminster's view of the Sabbath.

That being said, while I believe the time of the Sabbath to be an important issue, I agree with Fred's statement that it is more important that one biblically observe the Sabbath, then what time it starts.
 
The Lord's Day is the 1st day of the week and is from the resurrection of Christ forward.

First of all, the Lord's Day is the first day of the week, but Scripture says nothing about it being from Christ's resurrection forward. In fact for this argument to stand towards giving proof of a midnight to midnight observance you would have to prove that Christ rose at midnight which is nowhere in the bible. The Lord's Day is simply the first day of the week, so you must go to Scripture to find the biblical definition of a day, which is evening to evening.

If it were supposed to be sundown to sundown, why did Christ not rise from the dead on the evening prior to the 1st day of the week. Or for that matter, why didn't the women go hurrying out to the tomb in the dusk? Why did they wait until morning.

How do you know that Christ didn't arise in the evening. All we know is that He arose on the first day of the week before the sun rose. This could very easily be Saturday evening after sundown. Remember, the Jews considered the first day of the week to begin at sundown on the seventh day. Obviously the women waited until morning because they would have light at that time.

Why did Paul continue preaching so late at night on the Lord's Day (Acts 20)? In fact, he even went past midnight and people stayed on. He didn't cut it short when the sun went down so that everybody could get home to begin the 2nd day of the week.

He didn't cut it short after midnight either, so this adds no weight to a midnight to midnight observance. All this passage says is that he began preaching on the first day of the week and continued to preach after midnight. They stayed up all night and then he left in the morning. You cannot draw any inferences from this passage to prove that a day is defined as midnight to midnight, evening to evening fits this passage just as well.
 
Just out of interest, do you guys believe the Sabbath prohibits the watching of TV on a Sunday?

Ex 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

This was the thing that brought me around; "Would working on Sunday, pushing buttons on a TV switcher to provide entertainment of others, be a violation of the 4th commandment?" When I answered "Yes," it followed that based on Ex 20:10, it would be wrong to watch TV for entertainment, something I know would require others to violate the 4th commandment (thy stranger that is within thy gates).

It is so easy to look at the 4th commandment as applying to "me" and ignore the aspect of what we do may cause others to be in more explicit violation of the 4th commandment.
 
I think an important inference to be drawn from the Fourth Commandment is that God has set apart a specific time, lasting 24 hours, which is his holy day, ie., the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath. I cannot see how it is either a matter of adiaphora or individual preference as to when this day begins, nor can I see how the Sabbath can equally begin at sundown for one person, noon for another and midnight for a third person. Moreover, the determination of when the day begins and ends has clear practical ramifications for Sabbath observance -- ie., is it lawful to go out to eat at a restaurant on Saturday evening or Sunday evening? is it lawful or not to watch the Superbowl on Sunday evening? An holy resting all the day is our duty but if the beginning of the day varies with a person's conscience, then there is no objective standard by which to evaluate Sabbath observance. I know that some Christians have taken the position historically that the Lord's Day begin at sundown on Saturday and some believe the Sabbath continues to begin at sundown on Friday, as well as other variations on this theme. But Biblical observance of the Sabbath is not limited to our activities during a 24-hour period of our own choosing, but rather how we spend our time in the 24-hour period which God has set apart, not man, ie., midnight-to-midnight on the first day of the week. The determination of this time period is certainly important and worthy of seeking clarification from the Scriptures. There is no legalism per se in exegeting from Scripture when the day begins any more than there is in exegeting which day of the week constitutes the Sabbath. The Fourth Commandment is very much concerned with the specific time appointed by God which makes up his holy day and we should we be likewise concerned about this matter. That said, as I have noted before, in many previous Sabbath discussions, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot

I agree that true Sabbath-keeping is not a list of do's and don'ts, but is exemplified in Augustine's famous saying, "Love God as do as thou wilt."

However, we can summarize the Ten Commandments as "Love God and love your neighbor" and still recognize that it is precisely a list of do's and don'ts. We need to think of God's law on both levels (the practical and the abstract).
 
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In Genesis a day is described as having "a morning and an evening." My understanding of that is closer to the 24 hrs from midnight to midnight than it is to evening to evening. Not to mention, our sabbath is based on the 7th day of creation sabbath rest, not on the Jewish sabbath. There may be some confusion there.
 
I think an important inference to be drawn from the Fourth Commandment is that God has set apart a specific time, lasting 24 hours, which is his holy day, ie., the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath. I cannot see how it is either a matter of adiaphora or individual preference as to when this day begins, nor can I see how the Sabbath can equally begin at sundown for one person, noon for another and midnight for a third person. Moreover, the determination of when the day begins and ends has clear practical ramifications for Sabbath observance -- ie., is it lawful to go out to eat at a restaurant on Saturday evening or Sunday evening? is it lawful or not to watch the Superbowl on Sunday evening? An holy resting all the day is our duty but if the beginning of the day varies with a person's conscience, then there is no objective standard by which to evaluate Sabbath observance. I know that some Christians have taken the position historically that the Lord's Day begin at sundown on Saturday and some believe the Sabbath continues to begin at sundown on Friday, as well as other variations on this theme. But Biblical observance of the Sabbath is not limited to our activities during a 24-hour period of our own choosing, but rather how we spend our time in the 24-hour period which God has set apart, not man, ie., midnight-to-midnight on the first day of the week. The determination of this time period is certainly important and worthy of seeking clarification from the Scriptures. There is no legalism per se in exegeting from Scripture when the day begins any more than there is in exegeting which day of the week constitutes the Sabbath. The Fourth Commandment is very much concerned with the specific time appointed by God which makes up his holy day and we should we be likewise concerned about this matter. That said, as I have noted before, in many previous Sabbath discussions, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Or we might look to our Confessions, which thought it wise, prudent, pastoral and Biblical to specificially describe and exegete which day in seven it was, and the fact that it was one in seven, and then spends the reminder of its time describing what actions are to be taken; and at the same time are completely silent as to the exact time the Lord's Day begins. Thus I would be reluctant to lay down a commandment that the Standards do not, and to focus where they do not. Especially since there is vigorous disagreement as to the beginning time (witness this thread), and it is a question which 99.99999% of our culture and 99.98% of the Church has never even heard of or considered.

7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
8. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.

Q. 115. Which is the fourth commandment?
A. The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called The Lord's Day.
Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
A. The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
Q. 118. Why is the charge of keeping the sabbath more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors?
A. The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own.
Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.
Q. 120. What are the reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it?
A. The reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it, are taken from the equity of it, God allowing us six days of seven for our own affairs, and reserving but one for himself, in these words, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: from God's challenging a special propriety in that day, The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: from the example of God, who in six days ... made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: and from that blessing which God put upon that day, not only in sanctifying it to be a day for his service, but in ordaining it to be a means of blessing to us in our sanctifying it; Wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Q. 121. Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?
A. The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restraineth our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it cometh but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it; and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.
 
Of course, and just thinking here, it might be more important to think about how to cultivate a love for the Lord's Day, and how to spend the day in works of mercy and piety (more than just worship and a nap) than to get twisted around the axle of which form of the day it is. I can't imagine why an pastor would be anything but pleased by anyone who tried to Biblically keep the Lord's Day - whether it was sundown to sundown or midnight to midnight.

That seems the wisest. Why not use Saturday night to prepare for the Lord's Day (with prayer, reading, psalm singing etc.), enjoy and observe the Lord's day until bedtime, and be refreshed for work on Monday?
 
Fisher's Catechism, Q. 58:

Q. 1. To what about the Worship of God has this command a reference?

A. It refers to the special TIME of God's worship.

Q. 2. Is the TIME of God's worship left arbitrary to the will of man?

A. No; we are to keep holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his word.
***
Q. 7. What is the special and stated time, which God has expressly, appointed in his word, to be kept holy?

A. One whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself.

Q. 8. What is meant by a whole day?

A. A whole natural day, consisting of twenty-four hours.

Q. 9 What do you understand by one whole day in seven?

A. A seventh part of our weekly time; or one complete day, either, after or before six days' labour.

Q. 10. When should we begin and end this day?

A. We should measure it just as we do other days, from midnight to midnight, without alienating any part of it to our own works.
 
In Genesis a day is described as having "a morning and an evening." My understanding of that is closer to the 24 hrs from midnight to midnight than it is to evening to evening. Not to mention, our sabbath is based on the 7th day of creation sabbath rest, not on the Jewish sabbath. There may be some confusion there.

Actually a day is described as an evening and a morning. There was darkness before there was light. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 
Thank you Andrew and Greg for proving my point. Because of course we could go to several Scriptures that make this issue unclear, or we could go the cut and paste route (which is ever popular) in which John Flavel gives us a third option, that of beginning at dawn on the Lord's Day and ending at dawn the next day:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif][SIZE=-2][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]Q. 6. When doth the Christian Sabbath begin?
A. It appears that this day is not to be reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning; because the Christian Sabbath must begin when the Jewish Sabbath ended, but that ended towards the morning, Matthew 28:1. In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.
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or a combination of these concepts, as advocated by Vincent:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif][SIZE=-2][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]Q. 6. When doth this holy day or Sabbath begin, in the evening before, or that morning from midnight?
A. In the evening before, by virtue of that word, "Remember to keep holy the seventh day," we ought to begin to prepare for the Sabbath; but the Sabbath itself doth not begin until the evening is spent, and midnight thereof over, and the morning after twelve of the clock beginneth.
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or we could read Shaw, who does not address the issue.

But so much more pleasant to be diverted on this minutiae, and to declare with all our voice that the Scripture unequivocally backs our position with a "thus saith the Lord."
 
Fred -- If you will note, Flavel and Vincent (which I cited in the above-referenced thread on this subject) both hold to my position (articulated very well in that same thread by William Gouge, member of the Westminster Assembly), which is that the Sabbath begins in the morning, which commences at midnight (a definite beginning and end which applies to all persons), not the position which you seem to advocate, which is that is up to each individual to decide when the Sabbath begins.

Greg's position (and that of John Cotton, et al.), which I respectfully disagree with, is much to be preferred to a position that devalues the issue of when the Sabbath begins, making it a matter of liberty and chaos for all.

As I noted before, if everyone has liberty to decide when the Sabbath begins then we have no objective standard by which to evaluate something as practical and relevant to today's society (witness the concurent thread on this subject) as Superbowl parties.

William Gouge, The Sabbath's Sanctification:

Question 48. When begins the Lord's Day?
Ans. In the morning, Acts 20:7.
When Paul came to the Church at Troas, he had a mind to spend a Lord's day with them, though he was in great haste to depart so soon as he could. He came, therefore, to their assembly at the time that they came together according to their custom; but he kept them till the end of the day (for he would not travel on the Lord's day); and having dismissed the assembly, he departed. Now it said that he continued his speech "till midnight" (Acts 20:7), even "till break of day" (verse 11), and then departed; which departure of his is said to be "on the morrow." By this punctual expression of the time, it appears that the first day of the week, the Lord's day, ended at midnight, and that then the morrow began. Now to make a natural day, which consisteth of twenty four hours, it must begin and end at the same time; for the end of one day is the beginning of another. There is not a minute betwixt them. As, therefore, the Lord's day ended at midnight, so it must begin at midnight, when we count the morning to begin. Which is yet more evident by this phrase, Matt. 28:1, "In the end of the Sabbath" (namely, of the week before which was the former Sabbath) "as it began to dawn" (namely, on the next day, which was the Lord's day). Or, as John 20:1, "when it was yet dark" there came divers to anoint the body of Jesus, but they found him not in the grave. He was risen before; so as Christ rose before the sun.

Question 49. What reasons may be given of the Lord's day beginning in the morning?
Ans. Other days then begin.
That they do so with us is evident by the account of our hours. For midnight ended, we begin with one o'clock; then the first hour of the day beginneth. And it appears to be so among the Jews; for when Aaron proclaimed, Exod. 32:5, 6, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord," "they rose up early on the morrow." I deny not but that sundry of the Jewish feasts began in the evening, as the Passover (Exod. 12:6). But it cannot be proved that their weekly Sabbath so began. There were special reasons for the beginning of those feasts in the evening, which did then begin. As for the supposed beginnings of the first days gathered out of this phrase: "the evening and the morning were the first day;" they cannot be necessarily concluded to be at the evening. For the evening and the morning there importeth the moment of the evening and morning parting from one another, and the return to the same period; which moment is rather at the beginning of the morning than of the evening. The evening useth to be referred to the end of the day and the morning to the beginning, as Exod. 29:38, 29; 1 Sam. 17:16; John 20:19.

Question 50. What other reason is there of the Lord's day beginning in the morning.
Ans. Christ then rose, Mark 16:2, 9.
Of Christ's rising in the morning, no question can be made; all the evangelists agree in the narration thereof. Now the Lord's day being a memorial of Christ's resurrection, if it should begin in the evening, the memorial would be before the thing itself, wihch is absurd to imagine. As all God's works were finished before the first Sabbath, so all Christ's sufferings before the Lord's day. His lying dead in the grave was a part of his suffering. Therefore, by his resurrection was all ended. With his resurrection, therefore, must the Lord's day begin.

To make the evening before the Lord's day a time of preparation thereunto is a point of piety and prudence; but to make it a part of the Lord's day is erroneous, and in many respects very inconvenient.
 
Actually a day is described as an evening and a morning. There was darkness before there was light. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Oops.
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You are correct. I was going from memory which is obviously lacking.
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