Not sure what to make of this. I haven't read Al Mohlers article, but this certainly caught my eye.
Gay Babies
Thoughts?
Gay Babies
Thoughts?
Rev. Mohler in Controversy
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I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
So if a heart can be born hating God, bent on it's own interest, dead, and prone to all manners of evil, and be culpable for the whole kit-n'-kaboodle, why would "inborn" homosexuality be given a pass?
Christians should instead respond with the doctrine of original sin, that we're all depraved from birth anyway, and will be held liable, and not make the sinfulness of homosexuality to be predicated on some adult "choice" (even if, in many cases, it is).
If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
So if a heart can be born hating God, bent on it's own interest, dead, and prone to all manners of evil, and be culpable for the whole kit-n'-kaboodle, why would "inborn" homosexuality be given a pass?
Christians should instead respond with the doctrine of original sin, that we're all depraved from birth anyway, and will be held liable, and not make the sinfulness of homosexuality to be predicated on some adult "choice" (even if, in many cases, it is).
VaughanRSmith
Puritan Board Sophomore
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
I think most tendencies have some level of biological basis. That is not a problem unless one is going to say that "my genes made me do it". There is a vast difference between some level of causation and saying that I have no control over it.
When push come to shove, how is it any harder to swallow than saying that someone's upbringing/nurture has lead them to a certain lifestyle or pattern of living , yet that lifestyle is still sin and is still a suppression of the truth.
CT
Exactly. My genes make me predisposed toward getting fat and eating too much.
I also must come out of the closet: I prefer women. I always have. Ever since I was a young boy, I was attracted to them. I must control this tendency as well because I'm married to a woman I'm commanded to be faithful to.
I also must come out of the closet: I prefer women. I always have. Ever since I was a young boy, I was attracted to them. I must control this tendency as well because I'm married to a woman I'm commanded to be faithful to.
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Me, too - just not doing as well in "mortifying the flesh" in this area...
...but doing MUCH better in this arena! Just because it is "inborn" does not make it right.
I mean - really - what does genetic predisposition really mean and is it a surprise - hasn't alcoholism been strongly attributed to genetic predisposition?
Should it be ok because it's genetic? Would you pre-natally treat it if it were proven, safe and available?
Sure you would.
Heck - I'd treat my kids for genetic obesity!
Do you think it would solve our/their sin problem?
I remember sitting under the teaching of the late Dr. Harold Whitcomb of Grace Theological Seminary. He was a scholar in the area of creationism. I remember his lecture on recessive genes. He used the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to make his point. The human race is getting worse, not better. Mutations multiply with each successive generation. His theory was that if Jesus never returns, eventually the human race would be unable to survive. The part that really piqued by interest is what he said in response to aberrant behaviors in society. Some of them could be traced back to a predispostion within the womb. His scientific argument is above my head. I'm just a simple Baptist from New Jersey. But after reading the article on Rev. Mohler, it caused me to think back to his course 19 years ago.
Joysey? Which exit?
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
SemperFideles;
Just as I prefer men, always have, and I too must control my own tendancies in order to remain faithful, especially emotionally faithful when I feel my husband and I are not spending enough time together because the business of life tends to take over. We must make it a priority to sit and talk and fully enjoy each other. And we must at times tell our children NO, to some activities so that all of the competing activities do not pull us apart.
Just as I prefer men, always have, and I too must control my own tendancies in order to remain faithful, especially emotionally faithful when I feel my husband and I are not spending enough time together because the business of life tends to take over. We must make it a priority to sit and talk and fully enjoy each other. And we must at times tell our children NO, to some activities so that all of the competing activities do not pull us apart.
Forgedabodit.
Dude, I'm serious. Which exit did you live off of?
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
Absolutely !
Excellent point here JD. There is a member of my wife's extended family that came out a few years ago. I am reminded by Scripture that if Christ set us apart before the foundation of the world, certainly he has done the same for those that do not honor him as God [nor] give thanks to him.
Excellent point here JD. There is a member of my wife's extended family that came out a few years ago. I am reminded by Scripture that if Christ set us apart before the foundation of the world, certainly he has done the same for those that do not honor him as God [nor] give thanks to him.
15W.I live in Maryland now, but I was born and raised in Kearny, NJ..exit 15W off the Turnpike.
You know, it's really sad when you DO live off a Turnpike exit.
Founded on the Rock
Puritan Board Freshman
Mr. Brown,
Are you talking about Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana? Because that is only about an hour away from my home town....
It's such a small world....
Are you talking about Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana? Because that is only about an hour away from my home town....
It's such a small world....
Founded on the Rock
Puritan Board Freshman
The problem is many Evangelicals cannot define or defend orignal sin. Humanism is RAMPANT through evangelicalism... And the worst part is, if they hear someone say that there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality (I am not saying this is absolutely true), they think that person is attacking Christianity... I know because my parents feel this way and so does the church they attend.
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
The problem is many Evangelicals cannot define or defend orignal sin. Humanism is RAMPANT through evangelicalism... And the worst part is, if they hear someone say that there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality (I am not saying this is absolutely true), they think that person is attacking Christianity... I know because my parents feel this way and so does the church they attend.
That's a huge point, Brandon, and so very true.
gwine
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm not sure I would agree that the human race is getting worse, but then I'm just a simple Christian from Indiana. I'm not sure, though, that not all mutations are necessarily bad. Animal and plant breeding programs are basically using genetics to pass on favorable traits that are sometimes caused by DNA changes (mutations.)
Although bacterial mutations may not be a good thing . . .
I live in Maryland now, but I was born and raised in Kearny, NJ..exit 15W off the Turnpike.
You know, it's really sad when you DO live off a Turnpike exit.
I only asked because my Uncle lives in Pennsville (Exit 1) right across the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Seriously, though, I've never met a person in NJ that doesn't know the exit number they live off of.
Mr. Brown,
Are you talking about Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana? Because that is only about an hour away from my home town....
It's such a small world....
Brandon, yes. That was the school that Dr. Whitcomb was associated with.
Pennsville? No the area well. I have friends and family that live from exit 1 to exit 2. It is a 60 minuted drive to the Delaware Memorial Bridge from my house.
I'm not sure I would agree that the human race is getting worse, but then I'm just a simple Christian from Indiana. I'm not sure, though, that not all mutations are necessarily bad. Animal and plant breeding programs are basically using genetics to pass on favorable traits that are sometimes caused by DNA changes (mutations.)
Although bacterial mutations may not be a good thing . . .
Gerry, Dr. Whitcomb taught (with considerable scientific data behind him) that the human race was genetically getting worse. As with anything, small case studies can be cited that seem to contradict the larger picture. Such is the case today with evolutionists who are attempting to refute the Law of Entropy (the second law of Thermodynamics). I am not a physics expert, but some scientific data is irrefutable. For example, the orbit of the earth around the sun is in state of decay. Our planet's orbit is decaying at a minute rate , but it is decaying. Given enough time, the climate on Earth will be uninhabitable. To bring this example closer to home, the International Space Station is in a low-earth orbit of roughly 220 miles. The gravitational drag on the space station would bring it back into our planet's atmosphere in less than a decade. To prevent this the stations orbit will be adjusted with the help of rocket boosters. I'm not sure my example is proof of entropy, but it certainly doesn't paint a picture of things getting better on their own.
SRoper
Puritan Board Graduate
I just wanted to comment that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics cannot be used as an argument against evolution. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, so we can continue this elsewhere if you wish.
I am glad that most people who have posted are comfortable with the possibility that homosexuality might have a genetic component. I have long held that this possibility should not be a problem for Christians, but I thought I was in the extreme minority.
About a month ago a friend pointed out a book on our church book table for people who are struggling with same-sex attraction (several members of our church are former homosexuals and are active in ministry in this area). He showed me the opening sentence of the book which was something like, "There is no scientific evidence for a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality," and he had a problem with that. I agreed. While that may have been true at the time the book was published, why risk stating that with the possibility of being refuted in a few years? And what's with telling people that they aren't in as bad of shape as they thought? I thought the gospel is Christ came to save sinners.
Scott - I wouldn't use Entropy to attack evolution either. Entropy teaches order to disorder. This alone isn't cause enough to use Entropy as an argument against evolution, although others (Dr. Whitcomb among them) have. I simply brought it up to illustrate that society, like the physical world around us, is degenerating.
I suppose this means I can never be post-mil.
I suppose this means I can never be post-mil.
Keep in mind that I don't want to give too much away either. In fact, greater than a genetic pre-disposition, there is a huge correlation to homosexuality that you'll never see studied: childhood sexual abuse. The correlation is through the roof.
The goal of treating it as a genetic disposition is acting as if there is nothing that can be done. It's rather like the cop out that alchoholism is a disease and not a sin. If it's in my genes then I am somehow off the hook for it. If it fundamentally a sin issue then I have full responsibility for it.
I do believe there is potentially a genetic aspect to the Fall but let's not weaken our resolve to help people to repent of this sin. We ought not conclude that merely because a man is born a bit effeminate and was raised by a single mom and molested by a man as a child and became confused sexually that he's "stuck" now.
In fact, many make the full turn because there is a seeming acceptance in a crowd of people who are just like them. These kids are picked last for sports, made fun of at school, socially shunned in many cases, and then get into a crowd that seems very accepting. Unfortunately the gay lifestyle has even taken on a bit of a "cool factor" these days so why not try it out?
Chuck McIllhenny wrote a book called When the Wicked Sieze a City about his experiences as an OPC pastor in San Francisco. His daughter, Erin, is married to my former pastor and they are close friends.
Years ago, one of the men of the Church came forward and repented of the sin of homosexuality. He also revealed, at that point, that the organist was a practicing homosexual. The organist was an employee of the Church and refused to repent and so, after appropriate discipline failed, he was put out of the Church. Well, he sued the Church. The Church came under the ire of the "open-minded" gay community. Chuck's parsonage was firebombed one night while his wife and kids were still in it.
Things settled down but here is the telling part of the story. Chuck keeps up with the goings on in the gay community and follow obituaries. Every activist that was after his Church at that time is now dead. The organist is now dead. The only one still alive is the man who repented of his homosexual sin.
Now I've never met the man but I'm told that he is not what we might call a "man's man". But he repented of the sin. Might he have slipped occassionally along the way? Perhaps, but don't we all sin in gross ways? Unfortunately, the only type of deliverance of homosexuality ever lifted up is that the guy is now manly and happily married with 5 kids. Real people take a while, sometimes, to be sanctified and some are never going to change their patterns of speech and way of walking.
But they're still redeemed. How we think of homosexuality says a lot about how we think about the Gospel.
The goal of treating it as a genetic disposition is acting as if there is nothing that can be done. It's rather like the cop out that alchoholism is a disease and not a sin. If it's in my genes then I am somehow off the hook for it. If it fundamentally a sin issue then I have full responsibility for it.
I do believe there is potentially a genetic aspect to the Fall but let's not weaken our resolve to help people to repent of this sin. We ought not conclude that merely because a man is born a bit effeminate and was raised by a single mom and molested by a man as a child and became confused sexually that he's "stuck" now.
In fact, many make the full turn because there is a seeming acceptance in a crowd of people who are just like them. These kids are picked last for sports, made fun of at school, socially shunned in many cases, and then get into a crowd that seems very accepting. Unfortunately the gay lifestyle has even taken on a bit of a "cool factor" these days so why not try it out?
Chuck McIllhenny wrote a book called When the Wicked Sieze a City about his experiences as an OPC pastor in San Francisco. His daughter, Erin, is married to my former pastor and they are close friends.
Years ago, one of the men of the Church came forward and repented of the sin of homosexuality. He also revealed, at that point, that the organist was a practicing homosexual. The organist was an employee of the Church and refused to repent and so, after appropriate discipline failed, he was put out of the Church. Well, he sued the Church. The Church came under the ire of the "open-minded" gay community. Chuck's parsonage was firebombed one night while his wife and kids were still in it.
Things settled down but here is the telling part of the story. Chuck keeps up with the goings on in the gay community and follow obituaries. Every activist that was after his Church at that time is now dead. The organist is now dead. The only one still alive is the man who repented of his homosexual sin.
Now I've never met the man but I'm told that he is not what we might call a "man's man". But he repented of the sin. Might he have slipped occassionally along the way? Perhaps, but don't we all sin in gross ways? Unfortunately, the only type of deliverance of homosexuality ever lifted up is that the guy is now manly and happily married with 5 kids. Real people take a while, sometimes, to be sanctified and some are never going to change their patterns of speech and way of walking.
But they're still redeemed. How we think of homosexuality says a lot about how we think about the Gospel.
Ivan
Pastor
Good post, Rich. I agree.
What I bold-faced is truly amazing. I think I need to read that book.
Ivan
Pastor
Just bought the book on eBay. Thanks, Rich.
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