Regeneration - with or without the Word

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Fred,
This is why I wanted a distinction made in regards to how the spirit reveals Gods word........If the distinction was made, I haven't gotten it.

The Spirit does not reveal God's Word - the Spirit uses God's Word to reveal something, namely the truth of God (which includes our knowledge of our own sin and need for a savior), and His will for our salvation.

The Word is not a "thing" to be revealed. It is an instrument, an expression (indeed THE paramount expression) of the will of God brought to man.

So the Confession:

Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing: which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God´s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased (WCF 1.1)

[Edited on 12/7/2004 by fredtgreco]

 

[pastorway]

My point all along is to say that if the Spirit regenerates WITHOUT the Word then that is by far an extreme exception to the normal way in which He works to regenerate the elect. It is so extraordinary that it has made me wonder if the Spirit uses the Word to regenerate even the infant in the womb. The Spirit is able to regenerate with the Word even an infant in the womb.....but is this how He does it? That is all I am saying/asking.

And my real argument with Scott is that if I am reading him correctly he seems to be arguing that the Spirit does not usually use the Word to regenerate - but just regenerates without any instrument at all (ie. the Word).

Fred and Wayne, your posts have been most helpful to me in thinking this through.

Phillip

[Edited on 12-7-04 by pastorway]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Phillip,
I am saying that. Regeneration is the initial stage in the ordo. It happens via the spirit. Scripture supports this. John 3 and 8 are clear. Regeneration must occur prior to the recipient being able to see the kingdom and to understand spiritual things. The word is preached and conversion occurs. From a human perspective, this miracle may seem simultaneous, however, Gods word shows that thier are segments.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Scott Bushey]

 

[pastorway]

If that is what youy are saying then you are wrong about regeneration. The Spirit uses the Word to regenerate just as Jesus used His words to call out "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did. He did not have to be alive then hear then come out. He was dead, came to life when Jesus called, and came out.

You are correct that it is the preaching of the Word that brings about conversion, but you are wrong to exclude the Word from the work of regeneration. The verses that I have shown (and Fred and Wayne too) show clearly that the Spirit uses the instrument of the Word to bring us to life.

Phillip

[Edited on 12-7-04 by pastorway]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Phillip,
So let me ask you. Does God use the word in every occasion to regenerate individuals?

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Phillip,
So let me ask you. Does God use the word in every occasion to regenerate individuals?

Does God use the word in every occasion to convert individuals?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Yes.

 

[Scott Bushey]

OK. I give.

Break-through!

John the baptist, David, and Jeremiah were all regenerated in the womb by the word of Gods spirit.

Joh 3:8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.

Let me say this. I believe the wall in the way was seeing the word as the word preached; as in an audible substance. Spiritually, the word is not audible per se, but is more effectual.

Ok; we clear?

But this raises a new question then, could one be converted in the same manner; by the spirit, without the audible, preached word?



[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Scott Bushey]

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
OK. I give.

Break-through!

John the baptist, David, and Jeremiah were all regenerated in the womb by the word of Gods spirit.

Joh 3:8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.

Let me say this. I believe the wall in the way was seeing the word as the word preached; as in an audible substance. Spiritually, the word is not audible per se, but is more effectual.

Ok; we clear?

But this raises a new question then, could one be converted in the same manner; by the spirit, without the audible, preached word?

Scott,

If you are serious, and I think you are, then we have indeed made a breakthrough. Not a somebody wins breakthrough, but a "we were really on the same page breakthrough." Because your answer to my question about whether God use sthe word in every occasion to convert individuals ("yes") had me concerned until your post here, and now I agree completely. The Word is not a substance - it is the revelation of God to man. It is written (the Bible) and flesh (Christ).

So I think the answer to your question is also yes. I think WLC 154 and 155 are instructive here:

WLC 154: What are the Outward Means Whereby Christ Communicates to Us the Benefits of His Mediation?
Answer: The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation

WLC 155: How is the Word Made Effectual to Salvation?
Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word

 

[Scott Bushey]

Fred,
Understand what I am asking; If God goes to the unborn elect infant whom dies, or the imbecile, and regenerates them without the literal audible substance, He must also convert them in like manner. Now the question: If this is the case, who is to say God does not do the same with the native in the Amazon jungle? Granted, I understand that the norm is by Gods preached word, but based upon these ideas, how can one rule out this idea?

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Fred,
Understand what I am asking; If God goes to the unborn elect infant whom dies, or the imbecile, and regenerates them without the literal audible substance, He must also convert them in like manner. Now the question: If this is the case, who is to say God does not do the same with the native in the Amazon jungle? Granted, I understand that the norm is by Gods preached word, but based upon these ideas, how can one rule out this idea?

In Romans 10:12-15 (ESV), Paul says, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'"

Now, what you and Fred just agreed on is that, in exceptional cases, God saves apart from the ordinary means of the tangible Word. Notice that when the Confession speaks of that possibility, it speaks with reference to elect infants and "all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word" (X.III) - in other words, those incapable of being saved by preaching, hearing, believing, and calling as spoken of in Romans 10. Thus, God saves apart from His ordinary means those elect people who are incapable of being saved by those means, and I would understand that as speaking of people such as infants and the mentally retarded.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Chris,
What of the native in the Amazon?

 

[Me Died Blue]

Is he or she capable of being called by the ordinary means as outlined in Romans 10?

 

[Scott Bushey]

No. But you see, this is opening a can of worms. We are now saying that men can be saved apart from the gospel message.

 

[Me Died Blue]

That is precisely what the Confession is denying by using the term "incapable" - for it is only those who are incapable of being saved by the preached Gospel that God saves otherwise, which would not include an adult in the Amazon, since they would be perfectly capable of such if presented with it. I asked about this part of the Confession with regard to Inclusivism awhile back, and that thread may be helpful to this discussion.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
No. But you see, this is opening a can of worms. We are now saying that men can be saved apart from the gospel message.

I think the confusion on this point rests on the definition of "capable," as I would say "yes." The thread I referenced above speaks on that.

 

[fredtgreco]

Scott,

I think we can avoid the can of worms.

1. Regeneration is distinct from justification in that there is no condition to regeneration. There IS a condition to justification, namely faith in Christ. The fact that God fulfills that condition for us (by giving faith, Eph 2:8) is immaterial to the fact that a condition exists.

2. For this reason, the heathen in the Amazon (to use your example) is unable to fulfill the condition. It is possible for the Spirit to so fulfill the condition, but we have no evidence for it.

3. Again the Confession makes a helpful distinction between natural capability and spiritual capability. We can agree that all men are spiritually incapable apart from the work of the Spirit. But if we agree with the divines and Puritans that the main arena of operation of the Spirit in man in the mind (see esp. Owen, Vol 3*), in which the mind informs the will and points the affections in the proper direction (this is crucial to understanding Puritan, and I believe Biblical, anthropology), then obviously this does not apply to those who have not the physical capability of the mind.

4. And so the Confession is equally clear that salvation cannot come without saving knowledge: "Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable;a yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation"
; and at the same time affirms that "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,a who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." The clear emphasis is on an explicit kind of incapability.

Does that make sense?


* Owen explicitly states that the "gate of attack" as it were for the Spirit in regeneration is the mind: "The foundation of the whole is laid in our being 'renewed in the spirit of our mind;' which the same apostle elsewhere calls being 'transformed in the renovation of our minds,' Romans 12:2. That this consists in the participation of a new, saving, supernatural light, to enable the mind unto spiritual actings, and to guide it therein, shall be afterward declared. Herein consists our 'renovation in knowledge, after the image of him who created us,' Colossians 3:10"

 

[pastorway]

Yeah! We agree!!!

 

[Me Died Blue]

This calls for a banana dance...