Predetermined actions

[Darryl Le Roux]

I am interested to know how much information is available in regards to the matter of our actions towards certain situations, such as trials and if they have been predetermined?

What I mean is, say I am in the process of going through some sort of trial, or temptation, my actions towards said trial or temptation, are they predetermined by the Lord? As in, His Will for my response will always take action, meaning that it would be predetermined?

I understand the issue of our accountability for sin through Adam, our inability for Salvation and the like. But where is the theology for such things which carry weight in our spiritual walk? I am not referring to simple actions such as getting up and walking to the kitchen, but issues that have weight to them.

Would a work issue and the way I handle the confrontation be predetermined already by the Lord, or am I autonomous in my reaction? I cannot see how the latter would be the correct choosing here, as should I react in a manner which may lead the other to Christ, that has nothing to do with me, and instead was the Lord's predetermined method in which Johnny would be saved.

Extreme example, I know, but this has me slightly stumped.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Regardless of the situation or circumstance, or what believers may think is a "big trial" or something as indifferent as getting dressed in the morning, everything is is ordained. "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass." (1647 WCF Chapter 3:1).
Eph. 1:11, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased," (Psa. 115:3).

"Whatsoever" is a great Old English word. It covers everything.

The practical part of this is twofold - 1) we do not get to sit on our laurels and simply say, "everything is ordained so it doesn't matter what I do," because Christ commands us to action in thousands of biblical passages all through Scripture. And 2), Though God ordains everything, I don't feel manipulated. Both of those work towards our good in that through our mortification of sin, and vivification of life, we become more like Christ, and conformed to his image.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I am not referring to simple actions such as getting up and walking to the kitchen

Why not? The action mentioned above is no less ordained than "issues that have weight to them"

When I taught children and adults I often used the example of raising my hand. Would I do it? Or wouldn't I? I didn't even know at the time. But God did foreordain whether or not I would raise my hand. What will God will? I would ask. And. What will I do? Let's see. BYW - The outcome was always different.

Having said that I suggest that you do not meditate on the secret will of God at all. Pray, study the Scriptures, get counsel, and act to the best of your understanding. This will be God's will for you.

Whatever is true in the secret will of God, in our experience prayer changes things:
John 14:13-14
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

[timfost]

Jacob's sons selling Joseph into slavery would probably classify as "weighty."

Then his brothers also went and fell down before his face, and they said, “Behold, we are your servants.” Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

And we can rejoice "that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom. 8:28). We should never view our prayers as that which would change His predetermined purpose but rather see our prayers as a part of that purpose.

Like Ed explained, don't try to wrap your head around it but obey His commands and pray for the strength to do His will knowing that He is a willing and faithful Father.

Below is one of my favorite Heidelberg quotes:

26. What do you believe when you say, “I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth”?

That the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who of nothing made heaven and earth with all that is in them,1 who likewise upholds, and governs them by His eternal counsel and providence,2 is for the sake of Christ, His Son, my God and my Father,3 in whom I so trust as to have no doubt that He will provide me with all things necessary for body and soul;4 and further, that whatever evil He sends upon me in this valley of tears, He will turn to my good;5 for He is able to do it, being Almighty God,6 and willing also, being a faithful Father.7

[1] Gen. 1:31; Ps. 33:6; *Col. 1:16; *Heb. 11:3. [2] Ps. 104:2–5; Matt. 10:30; Heb. 1:3; Ps. 115:3; *Acts 17:24–25. [3] Jn. 1:12; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:5–7; Eph. 1:5; *Eph. 3:14–16; *Matt. 6:8. [4] Ps. 55:22; Matt. 6:25–26; Lk. 12:22–24; Ps. 90:1–2. [5] Rom. 8:28; *Acts 17:27–28. [6] Rom. 10:12. [7] Matt. 7:9–11; *Num. 23:19.

 

[Darryl Le Roux]

Regardless of the situation or circumstance, or what believers may think is a "big trial" or something as indifferent as getting dressed in the morning, everything is is ordained. "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass." (1647 WCF Chapter 3:1).
Eph. 1:11, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased," (Psa. 115:3).

"Whatsoever" is a great Old English word. It covers everything.

The practical part of this is twofold - 1) we do not get to sit on our laurels and simply say, "everything is ordained so it doesn't matter what I do," because Christ commands us to action in thousands of biblical passages all through Scripture. And 2), Though God ordains everything, I don't feel manipulated. Both of those work towards our good in that through our mortification of sin, and vivification of life, we become more like Christ, and conformed to his image.

Thank you for this, Matthew.

One thing that I do not understand as of yet, and do want to understand is this:

If God determines every action that we do, ordains every sin that we commit and the like, how are we not manipulated? I mean this is the greatest respect. As Leighton Flowers calls it, "pawns on a chess board".

Should the ultimate end be the conformity in Christs Image, why the need for the Lord to play a one sided game? Again, I mean this with respect.

The argument is then, as Ed pointed out, "do not meditate on the secret will of God at all". Leave it be, and so forth. How can one do this in all seriousness should they be truly looking for the answers of why we are here? The end game is a given, and beautiful and Holy, but the means in which we get there, according to having absolutely no "free-will" in the slightest capacity seems frivolous for our time here on earth.

Again, my understanding of the basic concept it sound, but when I dig deeper, I am left wanting. Purely out of my own ignorance, this I know. I just cannot seem to find answers that pleases that side of questioning without asking the exact questions I have. Hence this post. I also do not want anyone to think I am arguing with the Reformed Faith, I am not. I am merely trying to understand it on a deeper level than what can be recited off hand.

Should this questioning be too involved for the general discussion thread, please would you be so kind as to move it to the most appropriate.

 

[Cymro]

1Thess 3:3--"That no man should be moved by these afflictions:for yourselves know that we are appointed there unto." The secret things belong to God(His eternal purpose), the things that are revealed belong to us.His then the determination, ours the duty revealed.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If God determines every action that we do, ordains every sin that we commit and the like, how are we not manipulated? I mean this is the greatest respect. As Leighton Flowers calls it, "pawns on a chess board".

Pawns on a chessboard are not moral agents.

As our Confession states:

Chapter 3
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11,Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27-28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)


Chapter 9
1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil. (Matt. 17:12, James 1:14, Deut. 30:19)

Yes, God ordains all that has, is, or will happen. But note from WCF 3.1 above, that ordaining includes the liberty or contingency of second causes. In fact, the liberty and contingencies are established by God, else there would be none at all. Note from WCF 9.1 above, that no moral agent is being forced to act the way he or she so acts. God's decree is exhaustive, taking into account the whole complexity of choice, with all its options and motivations. God's ordaining that you will wear a blue shirt tomorrow is no part of the consideration which will enter into your rational process when you will certainly don that blue shirt. The necessity of God's decree will exercise no influence on your internal motivations tomorrow. Your rational motivation will operate freely without any necessitating control. You will act as yourself in every way. You will be the proximate cause of your actions. Yes, God is the First Cause of all things, the antecedent cause, yet God's ordaining includes and establishes the very liberty you possess and which you will leverage when you act within a realm of contingencies (upbringing, environmental factors, motives, abilities, etc.).

Neglecting the truths described in the WCF sections above leads to the usual anti-Calvinist canards that we are just puppets or robots. Rather, we are moral agents with wills and inclinations that drive our wills.

The advice given to not spend inordinate time about the secret will of God is important, for that matter, it is Biblical (Deut. 29:29) as one tends to focus on the how our wholly sovereign God can pull off holding man responsible. Just as we can accept that God is capable of uttering a few words and the universe springs into existence, we should be willing to accept that God can know all things since, after all, God ordained all things, yet He does so such that our moral culpability remains intact. We finite creatures tend to make dichotomies where none exist from God's perspective.

 

[timfost]

What Patrick said.

 

[Theogenes]

RC Sproul said that "There is not one maverick molecule in the universe". That pretty well covers "everything" that has been created.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Regardless of the situation or circumstance, or what believers may think is a "big trial" or something as indifferent as getting dressed in the morning, everything is is ordained. "God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass." (1647 WCF Chapter 3:1).
Eph. 1:11, "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased," (Psa. 115:3).

"Whatsoever" is a great Old English word. It covers everything.

The practical part of this is twofold - 1) we do not get to sit on our laurels and simply say, "everything is ordained so it doesn't matter what I do," because Christ commands us to action in thousands of biblical passages all through Scripture. And 2), Though God ordains everything, I don't feel manipulated. Both of those work towards our good in that through our mortification of sin, and vivification of life, we become more like Christ, and conformed to his image.

Thank you for this, Matthew.

One thing that I do not understand as of yet, and do want to understand is this:

If God determines every action that we do, ordains every sin that we commit and the like, how are we not manipulated? I mean this is the greatest respect. As Leighton Flowers calls it, "pawns on a chess board".

Should the ultimate end be the conformity in Christs Image, why the need for the Lord to play a one sided game? Again, I mean this with respect.

The argument is then, as Ed pointed out, "do not meditate on the secret will of God at all". Leave it be, and so forth. How can one do this in all seriousness should they be truly looking for the answers of why we are here? The end game is a given, and beautiful and Holy, but the means in which we get there, according to having absolutely no "free-will" in the slightest capacity seems frivolous for our time here on earth.

Again, my understanding of the basic concept it sound, but when I dig deeper, I am left wanting. Purely out of my own ignorance, this I know. I just cannot seem to find answers that pleases that side of questioning without asking the exact questions I have. Hence this post. I also do not want anyone to think I am arguing with the Reformed Faith, I am not. I am merely trying to understand it on a deeper level than what can be recited off hand.

Should this questioning be too involved for the general discussion thread, please would you be so kind as to move it to the most appropriate.

Darryl,

Everything everyone said so far is good. There is a bit more to the story, though, and in a post like this, it would take a really long time to hash all that out. But I will put you on a track that may help - its thinking bigger than you are thinking right now.

For myself, I had a really hard time reconciling actions in the same way you have. (This was many years ago). My Masters dissertation took the form of dealing with God's decree, the atonement, and certain philosophical issues that I felt too many preachers were leaving alone in the box of "mystery" rather than giving me a good theological answer to certain ideas which were not apparent contradictions, but real ones. So, the Master's thesis turned into a Ph.D. thesis called "The Two Wills of God." I was not satisfied with the answers that the pastors of my church gave me at the time, and it pressed me to have a clear, but lengthy, answer to your question about our "manipulation," and a whole bunch of other questions that fall into that same pot - how do I live every day when everything is ordained, how do I love my enemies and is enemy love something God does(?), God repents and changes his mind, the "free offer" of the Gospel to those God ordains will never be regenerated, God's sincerity in certain areas where He's ordained a certain outcome and end, the idea of common grace (real or not real?) for the reprobate, can the reprobate have good things given to them (i.e. are they really good or not, or are they simply heating hell hotter for them?), and many other questions. I surveyed Scripture, church history, historical theology, the reformation, puritans, etc. and then even dealt with men I thought made incredible blunders and muddied the waters on these issues (like RL Dabney and John Murray who totally missed the boat on some of these issues.)

Even though I'd love to give you a short easy answer that will cause you to give a gigantic "sigh" and feel relieved, you are embarking on a lengthy study that is in no way quickly answered. "Two Wills" is six hundred pages, with over 800 footnotes. It took a really long time to figure all the "ins and outs" to have an answer that I can, with certainty, give a sigh and be comfortable in my conclusions.

I'm working now, on making that book a bit shorter, and trying to think about what I can take out, leave in, etc. Most people won't read it. They aren't up for a Ph.D. read like that. But I'm quite a ways off from finishing it. I've just started.

I hope no one reading this feels like I'm just plugging my book. On a very real level, my contention with the elders of my church years ago was very real and very frustrating. I almost left the church I was in at the time over these issues. If the elders of the church were muddying the waters on all this for me, I didn't see how I could trust them on basic issues. Thankfully, a brother in the church and myself sat down and hashed a lot of this out over years of time. It was worthwhile. It took many years of hearty study to really work it all out. But its simply not a short journey. You have to think a bit bigger than just how your specific day goes. All of this is related intricately and all of it washes over on each other.

I don't know if this will help, but this was my logical flow of thought based on the chapters (and you can see the importance of the material as it builds):

PROLEGOMENA
CHAPTER 1 THE RIGHT USE OF LOGIC
The Relationship of Logic and Theology
Objections to Logic in Theology
The Relationship Between a Rational Hermeneutic and a True Theology
The “Consistent” Hermeneutic and the Doctrine of God
The Distinction Between a Mystery and a Contradiction
A Change of the Hermeneutical Rules
A.W. Pink and the “Ir”rational Hermeneutic
Hegel’s Dialectic and Kant’s Wall


CHAPTER 2 ARCHETYPAL AND ECTYPAL KNOWLEDGE
What Kind of Knowledge Do We Have About God?
Cornelius Van Til, John Frame, and Presuppositional Apologetics
Defining Things Clearly


CHAPTER 3 THE WILL OF GOD
Calvinism and Arminianism
The Inescapable Senses of the Bible
The Compound Sense and Divided Sense of the Bible
The Relationship Between the Decretive and Preceptive Will of God
What Does God Will?
The Bible and the Will of God
A Note on Calvin’s Use of Accommodation


CHAPTER 4 THE WILL OF GOD AND THE ELECT
God’s Will or Intention Towards the Elect


CHAPTER 5 THE WILL OF GOD AND THE REPROBATE


CHAPTER 6 THE WILL OF GOD AND COMMON GRACE
Is Common Grace Really Grace?
How Does the Bible Define Grace?
Grace is Not in Things–It is in Christ Alone
The Intention of God in Giving the Reprobate Good Things
Leaving Men Without Excuse
God Hides Salvation From Some Men
God Uses the Wicked as He Pleases
God’s Vindictive Justice is Amiable, Desirable and Comforting to the Saints
Common “Grace” Does Not Exist, But God’s Indiscriminate Providence Does Exist–We Should Not Confuse Them
Is There Such a Thing as Restraining Grace?


CHAPTER 7 EXEGETICAL ANALYSIS OF KEY PASSAGES APPEALING TO COMMON GRACE AND THE WILL OF GOD
Romans 2:1-5
Matthew 5:45, Luke 6:36, Romans 12:19-20,1 Thessalonians 5:15, 1 Peter 3:9 and Enemy Love
Matthew 5:45
Luke 6:35-36
Romans 12:14, 17-20, 1 Thessalonians 5:15 and 1 Peter 3:9
Romans 12:14, 17-20
1 Peter 3:10-12
Concluding Remarks on Enemy Love
John 3:16
Ezekiel 18:23, 32; 33:11
The Repentance and Vexation of God


CHAPTER 8 THE HYPOTHESIS OF THE CONTINUUM
Understanding the Continuum from God’s Eternality
Understanding the Continuum from God’s Immutability
Understanding the Continuum from God’s Unity and Simplicity
Understanding the Continuum in Light of God’s Omnipotence
Understanding the Continuum from God’s Actuality
Conclusion


CHAPTER 9 THE ETERNAL COUNSEL OF GOD AND HIS WILL
All Things Come from God’s Counsel
The Eternal Counsel Has its Base in God’s Knowledge
God’s Foreknowledge and the Continuum
The Continuum, Divine Decree, and Declaration
The Covenant of Redemption was Completed in the Eternal Counsel
Why Did God Will Complete Atonement in the Eternal Counsel and, Thus, a Continuum?
God Has Willed for Every Man Some End
Conclusion


CHAPTER 10 THE WILL OF GOD, THE CALL OF THE GOSPEL, AND THE REPROBATE
The Call of the Gospel and the “Free Offer”
Effectual Calling and the Gospel Offer
Who are the Recipients of the Gospel Call?
God Makes Men Inexcusable With The Gospel Call
What Does God “Will” in the Call?
What Do We Do With Texts Like 2 Peter 3:9 and Matthew 23:37?
The Decretum Absolutum Reprobationis


CHAPTER 11 ST. AUGUSTINE: THE WILL AND ACTIONS OF GOD IN PROVIDENCE, ELECTION, AND REPROBATION
The Providence of God
The Will of God
God Makes Good Use of the Wicked
All Men are Molded by the Wisdom and Will of the Potter
Augustine on Gospel the Call
The Christian Response to the Wicked
The Delight of the Saints in the Reprobation of the Wicked
Augustine and Common Grace
Conclusion

CHAPTER 12 JOHN CALVIN: THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION AND REPROBATION
Calvin’s Own Words
Calvin’s Treatises and Sermons on Election and Reprobation
Calvin’s Treatises
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
Calvin and the Will of God
Does God Bless the Unsaved?
God Hardens Men
Repentance is a Gift of God, Not Something from Natural Revelation
The Inward Gospel Call is Not for the Reprobate
A Brief note on Ezekiel 33:11 and 18:23
Calvin and Common Grace–God’s Fatherly Love
Conclusion


CHAPTER 13 WILLIAM PERKINS, THE WILL OF GOD, AND THE FOUNDATION FOR PURITAN THEOLOGY


CHAPTER 14 FRANCIS TURRETIN: THE TRUTH, THE WILL OF GOD, AND THE REPROBATION OF MEN
Turretin and the Truth that Must Never Contradict
Turretin and the Decrees of God
Turretin and the Will of God
Turretin on Reprobation
Turretin and Gospel Preaching
Conclusion


CHAPTER 15 JOHN OWEN AND THE WILL OF GOD


CHAPTER 16 JONATHAN EDWARDS: THE PLIGHT OF THE WICKED AND THE CERTAINTY OF GOD’S DECREES
Edwards and Common Grace
Conclusion


CHAPTER 17 THE CREEDS AND CONFESSIONS OF THE EARLY CHURCH
God’s Eternal Counsel is For His Glory
God Has One Will
God’s Governing Providence
The Light of Nature Cannot Save
Election and Reprobation Flow from God’s Good Pleasure
Election and Reprobation are To Whomsoever God Wills
Is The Gospel an Offer or a Gracious Command?
Does God Love the Non-elect?
Leaving the Reprobate Without Excuse
Attendance of the Curse of God
Do Not Despair
Conclusion


CHAPTER 18 HOW SHALL WE PREACH THE GOSPEL?
John Bunyan
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
William Greenhill
Conclusion


CHAPTER 19 ARE THERE TWO WILLS IN GOD OR NOT?
Does God Really Have Two Wills? The Importance of the Answer


APPENDIX R. L. DABNEY AND THE WILL OF GOD

 

[Tom Hart]

Understand that this is the hardest doctrine to comprehend. (At least Beza thought so.)

As others have said, everything is predestined. Every blink of the eye, every speck of dust. Why should we believe that?


Consider these statements:

1. God is omnipotent, sovereign. The Bible frequently describes Him as 'Almighty'.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God is unchanging.

Let us now take these statements to their logical ends.

1. He is sovereign over all things. He created all things and He sustains all things, down to the tiniest proton.
2. God knows everything. He is beyond time (which is His handiwork) and thus nothing can 'surprise' Him. If He does not know where the next snowflake will fall, how can we say He is all-knowing?
3. God does not change in any respect. This means that He cannot 'learn' something, since He already knows it. If I touch the tip of my nose, will God not have expected that? It may seem a petty example, but if God is unchanging, then we cannot surprise Him with our free actions.


Many will balk at this: 'So, God controls everything? Then Calvinism is determinism!' Not so! I can say that my free will is real within His decree, if that makes any sense. My free will are the means by which God has ordained His will to be accomplished. Why do we pray? Why do we preach the word? These are the means by which God has deemed His will to be carried out.

But does this not make God the author of evil? We have to understand that in some manner, our sovereign God maintains absolute sovereignty. God demonstrates His holiness, righteousness and grace by delivering His elect, and by punishing the wicked for their sins, He maintains His justice.

As someone else has said already, this can appear a paradox to the human mind, but not so to God. For who can know the mind of God?

To believers this doctrine should be the greatest comfort. God is sovereign! His will shall always be accomplished. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, because our God is sovereign over all things.


I remember asking my dad about this as a kid. He told me he didn't see 'why it is necessary' that God has predestined everything. But it is necessary. If He is not totally sovereign, then He is not God. If He is not totally sovereign, how can we trust in Him for our salvation? Why then would He be worthy of worship?

The idea is repulsive to the natural man. When Calvin, against Bolsec, proclaimed his position (especially with regard to election) many other Protestants distanced themselves from the doctrine, though they ought to have been allied to Calvin's cause. Calvin was rare in his day in that he boldly took the biblical statements to their logical ends, as uncomfortable as they are to the natural man, who loves to dream of his freedom.

I have gone over some of the surface of this matter. I hope it helps you to think about this very difficult but important doctrine. The other replies in this thread are full of wisdom.

 

[Toasty]

God can ordain what you do in different ways. You could have the knowledge and skills to do X, but not have the opportunity to do X. You could know the actions to take in order to accomplish X, but not have the desire to do X.