PB made the first entry in the Demar timeline

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I am still curious about how this informs accountability of teaching ministries outside the church. Whose role is it?
 
I think the one great thing about all of this is that more people are seeing the absolute sham that is Moscow, ID.
 
I am still curious about how this informs accountability of teaching ministries outside the church. Whose role is it?
If I've understood your question correctly, I think that it is the responsibility of every person who knows the good they ought to do by exposing it. (James 4:17) If no one had confronted DeMar, God could have very well sent a donkey. He's done it before. (Numbers 22:21-38)

These parachurch ministries shouldn't exist, but since they do, it's everyone's problem.
 
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If I've understood your question correctly, I think that it is the responsibility of every person who knows the good they ought to do by exposing it. (James 4:17) If no one had confronted DeMar, God could have very well sent a donkey. He's done it before. (Numbers 22:21-38)

These parachurch ministries shouldn't exist, but since they do, it's everyone's problem.
There has to be some qualifications and lines drawn, if not we would need to go after a multitude on social media, anyone we come across
 
I'm curious to know if anyone actually listened to his 5 podcasts in response?
 
There has to be some qualifications and lines drawn, if not we would need to go after a multitude on social media, anyone we come across
I think I see where you’re coming from. Yet, still, I say, so much as you are able, put your hand to the plow and don’t look back. We have the great luxury of serving the Lord from the comfort of our own homes via the Internet. It is also a great privilege as far as choice labor in the Lord’s service is concerned. These folks are a vocal minority and technology has given them a podium much taller and broader than they would otherwise have. It goes without saying that they are doing great harm while left unchecked.

As for drawing lines, I’ve had trouble myself with this over the years and while I have since stepped away from social media, I still find myself weighing in on many things I come across in the providence of God.

:2cents:
 
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Forgive my ignorance, but what is Moscow ID? I didn't see it mentioned in the linked article.
I believe this is a veiled reference to Mr. Doug Wilson who resides in Moscow, Idaho.
 
I had just done a hard text search for "moscow" within the article and the only hit I got was in reference to a church in Idaho.
Gotcha. My assumption may be incorrect. Perhaps someone can educate both of us!
 
Forgive my ignorance, but what is Moscow ID? I didn't see it mentioned in the linked article.
Of my understanding, Moscow, ID is the arch-type of the possibility of ever establishing a theocratic/theonomic society first within America, then the greater world. It is kind of the "Mecca" of Theonomy, with Doug Wilson as its stead. But it is also an experiment. Can or will, in any place in the US, the Bible be the rule of the land? If they cannot do it in Moscow, I don't see how it can be done anywhere within Americas borders since so much fervency to do so is facilitated especially in that region. First, our present Constitution would need to be dissolved; the same one that makes the desire of Moscow seem like an unattainable dream.

With that being said, this is in my very limited understanding of the topic. I could be completely wrong; forgive me if I am.
 
Of my understanding, Moscow, ID is the arch-type of the possibility of ever establishing a theocratic/theonomic society first within America, then the greater world. It is kind of the "Mecca" of Theonomy, with Doug Wilson as its stead. But it is also an experiment. Can or will, in any place in the US, the Bible be the rule of the land? If they cannot do it in Moscow, I don't see how it can be done anywhere within Americas borders since so much fervency to do so is facilitated especially in that region. First, our present Constitution would need to be dissolved; the same one that makes the desire of Moscow seem like an unattainable dream.

With that being said, this is in my very limited understanding of the topic. I could be completely wrong; forgive me if I am.
If Christ's kingdom is not of this world I don't see how this would ever be accomplished. Also why would anyone get rid of our constitution seeing it separates and restrains all three branches of the government? A problem most of history's people have tried to restrain or overthrow. Moscow would certainly consolidate power since a lot of their power in the church is already in a few self appointed men rather than the people. May it never be! I have read their book of church order on conducting presbytery trials and it is very brief, vague (lacking definition) and seems bent to work against the injured party such as not hearing and dismissing whatever they consider "frivolous matters" on page 73-75. According to who? If its Doug Wilson, then marital rape fits this bill along with church officers and their sexual misconduct and then blaming culture instead of holding them accountable for their sins. I can't imagine this "theonomy" playing out in a civil sphere.
 
A latest post. Posting this here because I do not think it needs a new thread.
 
A latest post. Posting this here because I do not think it needs a new thread.
So how does the session discipline a member who publicly advocates a view that blaspheme Christ's provision of the sacrament for his church? Bar him from the table?
 
It wasn't a veiled reference to Moscow, ID. Moscow is the font of heresy. The same folks who say, "But Demar told us he isn't full preterist" are the same people who said "But we have always believed in faith alone."
 
The question for me is the allowance of non-elders being leaders of teaching ministries in the first place. Is there any other Presbyterian layman who is overseeing a teaching ministry like DeMar?

When a layman wants to teach something such as Theonomy, why were alarms not sounded within the local church?
 
The question for me is the allowance of non-elders being leaders of teaching ministries in the first place. Is there any other Presbyterian layman who is overseeing a teaching ministry like DeMar?

When a layman wants to teach something such as Theonomy, why were alarms not sounded within the local church?
Commenting from the perspective of a Baptist who has spent the better part of two decades working with technology, this is difficult to police. We live in a day of Discord servers, podcasts and livestreams. It isn't merely a problem of books and parachurch ministries with special in-person meetings.

I absolutely agree with the idea that parachurch ministries are disorderly. But how would people propose to police and prevent that? If something like American Vision weren't spreading in daylight as a 501(c)3*, it could just as easily gain a foothold in the twilight, on say a Reformed Discord server. If you haven't visited one before, I would encourage you to, if only to get a sense of the scale of the problem. There are seminary students, armchair experts and all manner of heretics teaching dozens (sometimes hundreds) of young men and women. Unqualified, uncalled, unchecked.

Preventing any and all 'lay teaching' in light of present day technologies would be difficult indeed.
 
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I'm curious to know if anyone actually listened to his 5 podcasts in response?
I've listened to all 5 once and am half way through them all a second time. I think he makes some fair points. I'm nobody special, but I can't get on board with calling him a heretic.
 
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If Christ's kingdom is not of this world I don't see how this would ever be accomplished. Also why would anyone get rid of our constitution seeing it separates and restrains all three branches of the government? A problem most of history's people have tried to restrain or overthrow. Moscow would certainly consolidate power since a lot of their power in the church is already in a few self appointed men rather than the people. May it never be! I have read their book of church order on conducting presbytery trials and it is very brief, vague (lacking definition) and seems bent to work against the injured party such as not hearing and dismissing whatever they consider "frivolous matters" on page 73-75. According to who? If its Doug Wilson, then marital rape fits this bill along with church officers and their sexual misconduct and then blaming culture instead of holding them accountable for their sins. I can't imagine this "theonomy" playing out in a civil sphere.
I cant imagine it either. But that is why I kind of consider Moscow the arch-type. Meaning, that if there is so much theonomical influence in that little region; which means people should be getting involved in the civil sphere, whether that is local economy via small businesses, or local government, education, etc. If it cannot pull-off altering the region into a Bible-based society, where the laws are founded on scripture; then there is little hope on a larger scale. Our Constitution is one of the major hindrances of theonomy, even people like AD Robles has commented that it would need to be done away with for theonomy to flourish; mainly because it not only allows, but protects religious plurality.

With that being said, the most attractive feature I find about the theonomistic movement is the logical conclusion which many Christians unknowingly follow; that is, if you ask a Christian why they think abortion should be illegal, why stealing should be illegal, why homosexuals shouldnt have the right to marry; it all comes back to a biblical basis. And, if the Bible is used to justify disagreement with such issues, then why is one only choosing to use the Bible in limited circumstance while allowing other sins to prevail in the name of democratic freedom?

There is definitely an attraction to theonomy, and, honestly I wish America were a theocracy. My biggest fear though isnt so much the principle but the application. I trust God to create perfect rules to justly govern society. I dont trust sinful man to justly carry them out.
 
Commenting from the perspective of a Baptist who has spent the better part of two decades working with technology, this is difficult to police. We live in a day of Discord servers, podcasts and livestreams. It isn't merely a problem of books and parachurch ministries with special in-person meetings.

I absolutely agree with the idea that parachurch ministries are disorderly. But how would people propose to police and prevent that? If something like American Vision weren't spreading in daylight as a 501(3)c, it could just as easily gain a foothold in the twilight, on say a Reformed Discord server. If you haven't visited one before, I would encourage you to, if only to get a sense of the scale of the problem. There are seminary students, armchair experts and all manner of heretics teaching dozens (sometimes hundreds) of young men and women. Unqualified, uncalled, unchecked.

Preventing any and all 'lay teaching' in light of present day technologies would be difficult indeed.
I hear you.
I would say someone setting up a 501(3)c as a full time ministry and calling for donations- is a standard above discord twitter
 
I cant imagine it either. But that is why I kind of consider Moscow the arch-type. Meaning, that if there is so much theonomical influence in that little region; which means people should be getting involved in the civil sphere, whether that is local economy via small businesses, or local government, education, etc. If it cannot pull-off altering the region into a Bible-based society, where the laws are founded on scripture; then there is little hope on a larger scale. Our Constitution is one of the major hindrances of theonomy, even people like AD Robles has commented that it would need to be done away with for theonomy to flourish; mainly because it not only allows, but protects religious plurality.

With that being said, the most attractive feature I find about the theonomistic movement is the logical conclusion which many Christians unknowingly follow; that is, if you ask a Christian why they think abortion should be illegal, why stealing should be illegal, why homosexuals shouldnt have the right to marry; it all comes back to a biblical basis. And, if the Bible is used to justify disagreement with such issues, then why is one only choosing to use the Bible in limited circumstance while allowing other sins to prevail in the name of democratic freedom?

There is definitely an attraction to theonomy, and, honestly I wish America were a theocracy. My biggest fear though isnt so much the principle but the application. I trust God to create perfect rules to justly govern society. I dont trust sinful man to justly carry them out.
You have to have religious plurality because for one, not a single denomination or reformed thought can pin down a definition of what is considered "true" Christianity. The three kingdoms and mainland Europe tried it, and met with many centuries of political and religious persecution and unrest often both assaulting the true church and unbelievers at the same time to the "glory of God". The best way, in the words of our Lord in his parable of the tares and wheat is the following:

Mat 13:27-30 KJV 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
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I've listened to all 5 once and am half way through them all a second time. I think he makes some fair points. I'm nobody special, but I can't get on board with calling him a heretic.

In those five podcasts, did he affirm a future bodily resurrection and a future / eschatological return of Christ to Earth?
 
In those five podcasts, did he affirm a future bodily resurrection and a future / eschatological return of Christ to Earth?
He never rejects any of that. He's really explaining what led to the whole question debacle. He's asking why none of the signers went to him privately instead of posting publicly. He's asking what verses they themselves use that they want him to affirm. He's explaining why he's asking questions about the Bible at all. He's asking why multiple views on other eschatological topics are accepted and he's not allowed to ask questions.

It seems to me that this is a serious enough issue that at least some of the signers should sit down with Demar and hash it out, especially since many of them are friends. I also think it's worth it for people to listen to those episodes and hear what he has to say before deciding he's a heretic.
 
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