Outside the Camp...question

[LadyFlynt]

Okay....

1) I know we've had trouble from ppl involved in this


However...

2) Hubby has Andrew Bain subbed to his blog (I remember us banning him) and so hubby is looking at the OTC site. Some of their stuff sounds legit...but he is wondering where they vere off and how.

Help, gents?

[Edited on 5-6-2006 by LadyFlynt]

 

[Contra_Mundum]

These are the folks who have consigned Calvin to hell, for not being Calvinist enough.

Nuff sed.

 

[fredtgreco]

I would not advise even speaking or writing to Mr. Bain.

He is a false teacher, and wicked. He routinely lies and deceives in order to gain entrance to various internet fora. My advice would be to ban him and not allow him even the slightest opening for his filth.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I know that...but I need PROOF and he really wants info, not just a brush off of the people. Please state the points and issues and their counter arguments. My husband likes to research things out...therefore he's ask me to ask you all (I recommended it as you have dealt with them and their issues).

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Here's a thread with an extensive e-mail quote:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8080

 

[LadyFlynt]

okay, going to look at it.

 

[LadyFlynt]

That thread must be locked away, because it says I'm not permitted to view it.

 

[LadyFlynt]

 

[fredtgreco]

On Calvin:

Finally, to describe a belief in the doctrines of the name "Calvinism" implies that Calvin believed the doctrines of grace and that those who believe the doctrines of grace believe what Calvin believed. We have recently found out that Calvin did not even believe all of the doctrines of grace. In fact, he did not believe the very heart of the gospel, which is the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ. Needless to say, we were shocked and saddened when we discovered this. But the proofs are incontrovertible. (Note that the proofs below do not merely depend on Calvin's use of the word "world" outside of the context in which he used it, which could be taken many different ways.) Contrary to William Cunningham's statement that "There is not, then, we are persuaded, satisfactory evidence that Calvin held the doctrine of a universal, unlimited, or indefinite atonement" (The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation, p. 398), the quotes below cannot be explained in any other way than universal atonement. [It is interesting to note that Cunningham also stated, "Now it is true, that we do not find in Calvin's writings explicit statements as to any limitation in the object of the atonement, or in the number of those for whom Christ died; and no Calvinist, not even Dr. Twisse, the great champion of high Supralapsarianism, has ever denied that there is a sense in which it may be affirmed that Christ died for all men" (p. 396). If we take Cunningham's version of Calvinism - that NO Calvinist has ever denied that there is a sense in which Christ died for everyone without exception - then we are certainly FAR from being Calvinists, as is every Christian.]

The following are quotes from John Calvin, each followed by an explanation of what he was saying. You will find that what he was saying cannot be explained in any other logical way. John Calvin was an unregenerate man when he made these statements. Those "converts" from Roman Catholicism who believed what he said about the atonement were doing nothing more than going from the Roman Catholic Whore Church into the Protestant Whore Church. They were just going from wicked Roman Catholic universal atonement to wicked Protestant universal atonement, from being lost Roman Catholics to being lost Protestant
from http://outsidethecamp.org/norefcal.htm

On Berkhof:

Theologian Louis Berkhof on common grace, common love, and the well-meant gospel offer:

"Common grace ... does not effect the salvation of the sinner, though in some of its forms (external calling and moral illumination) it may be closely connected with the economy of redemption and have a soteriological aspect. ... Common grace is resistible, and as a matter of fact is always more or less resisted. ... common grace is mediate, since it is the product of the mediate operation of the Holy Spirit through the truth of general or special revelation and by moral persuasion. ... It cannot be doubted that common grace finds its purpose in part in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ ... If it be objected that we cannot fully harmonize the indiscriminate and sincere offer of salvation on condition of faith and repentance with the doctrine of particular atonement, this may be admitted but with the distinct understanding that the truth of a doctrine does not depend on our ability to harmonize it with every other doctrine of Scripture. ... the Bible clearly teaches that He showers untold blessings upon all men and also clearly indicates that these are the expression of a favorable disposition in God, which falls short, however, of the positive volition to pardon their sin, to lift their sentence, and to grant them salvation. ... He does not even withdraw His love completely from the sinner in his present sinful state, though the latter's sin is an abomination to Him, since He recognizes even in the sinner His image-bearer. John 3:16; Matt. 5: 44,45. At the same time He loves believers with a special love ... His love to man is always unmerited, and when shown to sinners, is even forfeited." [from Systematic Theology, pp. 71-72, 437-438, 445]

"The general and well-meaning offer of salvation is an evidence of God's favor toward sinners, is a blessing of the Lord upon them. ... The explanation of this must be found in the purpose God had in view with this revelation of His love. And what was this purpose? Was it to cast the ungodly Jews more deeply into perdition? No, but to lead them to repentance. ... But in the case of the Jews the result does not correspond to the intention. They hardened themselves against this revelation of God's goodness. ... The Holy Spirit ... sought to check their ungodliness and to lead them to repentance. ... But the Spirit strove in vain; sin increased rapidly." [from De Drie Punten in Alle Deelen Gereformeerd, as quoted in Herman Hoeksema's A Triple Breach in the Foundation of the Reformed Truth]
from http://outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy23.htm

On Spurgeon:

"Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. ... I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and he could never find the doctrine of election in them. ... There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer - I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one of whom the world was not worthy. I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see the truths, or at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinists in or out of heaven."

[unregenerate "Calvinist" Charles H. Spurgeon, from "A Defense of Calvinism" (ironically enough)]
from http://outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy33.htm

There is much more, but it is a complete waste of time. Suffice it to say that Mr Bain has anathamatized EVERYONE except his own small group (which I doubt consists of more than himself and his family).

 

[NaphtaliPress]

The OTC guys don't like The Confessional Presbyterian. That's all I need to know. Seriously, these guys are a time sink and tar baby; making disciples twicefold children of hell etc; stay away.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Okay, thank you...Hubby will be looking these over this weekend. He didn't have time earlier due to us being expected at a relative's. I had read an article from the site earlier and I was NOT pleased.

So, Fred...OTC is Bain's own personal site/grouping?

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Okay, thank you...Hubby will be looking these over this weekend. He didn't have time earlier due to us being expected at a relative's. I had read an article from the site earlier and I was NOT pleased.

So, Fred...OTC is Bain's own personal site/grouping?

If I'm not mistaken, Marc Carpenter is involved as well.

Check out their Heterodoxy Hall of Shame, and that will give you an idea of where they stand: http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxyhall.htm

If I recall correctly, one of their arguments is that any Calvinist who thinks some Arminians are saved is lost.

 

[turmeric]

Is the guy's name really Bane? Oops, Bain?

 

[fivepointcalvinist]

if i remember correctly, james white had a few things to say about this group. you may want to check his website for some of his refutations against their assertions....

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
I would not advise even speaking or writing to Mr. Bain.

He is a false teacher, and wicked. He routinely lies and deceives in order to gain entrance to various internet fora. My advice would be to ban him and not allow him even the slightest opening for his filth.

Another trick of his has been mining the addresses from various groups and spamming the members directly.

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist
if i remember correctly, james white had a few things to say about this group. you may want to check his website for some of his refutations against their assertions....

See here, here, here and here

 

[Ivan]

Originally posted by Pilgrim

Originally posted by fredtgreco
I would not advise even speaking or writing to Mr. Bain.

He is a false teacher, and wicked. He routinely lies and deceives in order to gain entrance to various internet fora. My advice would be to ban him and not allow him even the slightest opening for his filth.

Another trick of his has been mining the addresses from various groups and spamming the members directly.

He emailed me. As I recall I put into spam mode and haven't gotten anything from him since.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Both Bain and Carpenter have been through my AACL list. I've kicked both off because of their beligerence. Their posts are still available in the archives at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AACL .

Yes, they believe that anyone who does not hold to Limited Atonement is lost and if you do hold to limited atonement but believe that those who don't can still be saved, you're lost.

Nutjobs. Don't even waste time interacting with them to say 'HI'. Run the other way and give them NO outlet to speak.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Hubby has come to the same conclusion...the leaven is not worth the rest. Thank you, gentlemen...he appreciated the responses (and the quotes!).

 

[ServantOfKing]

I was instant messaged - rather unknowingly - by Mr. Bain. The conversation was disturbing to say the least, and as soon as I caught on to where it was going, I ended it. I don't mean to sound unkind, but it was kind of scary. It sounded like Satanic lies, and worse because of being mixed with truth. The screenname is "Andrew C Bain 99." If this person instant messages you, I'd suggest not even bothering to converse. I was naive and unwise enough to waste my time, and I hope noone else falls into the same trap. Be careful of false teachers who claim to be reformed!!!

 

[Magma2]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

2) Hubby has Andrew Bain subbed to his blog (I remember us banning him) and so hubby is looking at the OTC site. Some of their stuff sounds legit...but he is wondering where they vere off and how.

A couple of small points. I don´t know that Bain can be considered a teacher, although much of what he believes, in no small part thanks to Marc Carpenter, is false. I think he´s a student and, if I were to guess, probably in his early twenties. I know he lives in Australia. At one time he tracked down my phone number and called me a couple of times at my home. I can´t say the conversations were fruitful, but at least it was his dime.

Dr. Robbins recently said of Carpenter; "œIf you say you like the color blue, he will accuse you of hating red, nursing a grudge against yellow, and damn you to polychromatic Hell." I think that about sums up Andrew too, although he seems to be more of a follower. The good thing is that I´m sure Andrew will be anathematized by Marc soon enough and OTC will go from a cult of two to just Marc. After all, I remember when the link page on Marc´s website was a couple of pages long, but one by one the list was whittled down to nothing. They all were moved from the link page to his "Heterodox Hall of Shame" page.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Bain IM'd me yesterday; put him on 'don't call me I'll call you status.' Also deleted my IM addy from my PB profile.

 

[turmeric]

Originally posted by OS_X
Nutjobs. Don't even waste time interacting with them to say 'HI'. Run the other way and give them NO outlet to speak.

Nice paraphrase of 2 John 10, Kerry!

 

[Pilgrim]

Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Bain IM'd me yesterday; put him on 'don't call me I'll call you status.' Also deleted my IM addy from my PB profile.

I logged into Yahoo Messenger today to find that Bain had tried to add himself to my "friend" list.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Originally posted by ServantOfKing
I was instant messaged - rather unknowingly - by Mr. Bain. The conversation was disturbing to say the least, and as soon as I caught on to where it was going, I ended it. I don't mean to sound unkind, but it was kind of scary. It sounded like Satanic lies, and worse because of being mixed with truth. The screenname is "Andrew C Bain 99." If this person instant messages you, I'd suggest not even bothering to converse. I was naive and unwise enough to waste my time, and I hope noone else falls into the same trap. Be careful of false teachers who claim to be reformed!!!

He just instant messaged me. I said his name sounded familiar and asked him if He had done any forums. He only mentioned he had conversed with Matt. He asked me something about Clark's view of Faith. So I referred him to a few threads here. He said he was from Austrailia.

 

[Kaalvenist]

Originally posted by puritancovenanter

Originally posted by ServantOfKing
I was instant messaged - rather unknowingly - by Mr. Bain. The conversation was disturbing to say the least, and as soon as I caught on to where it was going, I ended it. I don't mean to sound unkind, but it was kind of scary. It sounded like Satanic lies, and worse because of being mixed with truth. The screenname is "Andrew C Bain 99." If this person instant messages you, I'd suggest not even bothering to converse. I was naive and unwise enough to waste my time, and I hope noone else falls into the same trap. Be careful of false teachers who claim to be reformed!!!

He just instant messaged me. I said his name sounded familiar and asked him if He had done any forums. He only mentioned he had conversed with Matt. He asked me something about Clark's view of Faith. So I referred him to a few threads here. He said he was from Austrailia.

My guess is, with several people on this board getting IM'ed by him within the past several days, he's probably lurking, trying to find individuals to whom he can "spread the gospel" (i.e. condemn as unregenerate).

He may even be here...right now... scary thought, isn't it?

To those who use IM, I recommend you take the necessary precautions.

To Mr. Bain: I told you before when you were spamming Reformed people on Xanga, including myself (shortly after you had gotten kicked off the Warfield list). Knock it off. Grow up. Quit buying into Carpenter's Hyper-Ultra-Seventeen-Point-Calvinism and join a real Reformed church. Depending on where you're at in Australia, I could recommend a few good ones to you. But don't try to proselytize anybody on this board.