Newt a Papist convert? Say it ain't so, Mr. Gingrich!

[DMcFadden]

[NOT a political comment on the Lord's Day. This is another of a series of prominent persons converting to the RC church. If you have a political reaction, please save it for tomorrow]

On today's Fox News Sunday, Chris Wallace elicited a testimony from lifelong Baptist Newt on how he converted to the RC church last week and found the conversion ritual in the mass to be "one of the most powerful moments in my life." "Peace in my soul" is what he claims to have found in catholicism.

Callista Gingrich, his third wife, is a member of the Choir of the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C. Oh my! Evidently, she has had an evangelistic influence upon her husband. I'm glad that she wasn't a Moonie or a Mormon!

 

[asc]

I'm glad that she wasn't a Moonie or a Mormon!

Is the end result any different?

 

[Herald]

Well, you have to ask yourself what type of Baptist Mr. Gingrich was. If he was a Baptist in name only, this isn't surprising.

 

[PresbyDane]

great another one

 

[DMcFadden]

Bill,

I don't think he was one of you or me. Actually, he identified with Alex's group!

Southern Baptist or Catholic. Not much difference, I guess.

One celebrates the Mass and the other celebrates having a mass of people.

 

[Herald]

Bill,

I don't think he was one of you or me. Actually, he identified with Alex's group!

Ahhhh. Now it makes perfect sense.

 

[SolaGratia]

Christianity Today mention about Gingrich:


At a moment when the role of religious fundamentalism in the party is a central question for reformers, Gingrich, rather than making any kind of case for a new enlightenment, has in fact gone to great lengths to placate Christian conservatives. The family-values crowd has never completely embraced Newt, probably because he has been married three times, most recently to a former Hill staff member, Callista Bisek. In 2006, though, Gingrich wrote a book called “Rediscovering God in America” — part of a new canon of work he has done reaffirming the role of religion in public life. The following year, he went on radio with the evangelical minister James Dobson to apologize for having been unfaithful to his second wife.


Gingrich to Convert to Catholicism | Politics | Christianity Today



Here are some comments from people in the above link:


Well, I just love it when people see the light!
Welcome home ... you'll be glad you're here.
The Catholic Church . . . there's no place like home!

A hearty warm welcome Mr.Gingrich to our spiritually rich, enduring faith. The loving arms of Catholicism embraces you and all you love wholeheartedly. I've watched you on FOX (Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity) these past years and admired your intelligence and compassionate stance regarding religion. It takes a strong man to make a big step and admit his past was just a bit imperfect at times...but to make a leap into our Catholic faith, and live it daily, is one step closer to Heaven. God bless your past Baptist faith; apparently it gave you wonderful guidance. I simply say "Deo Gratias" Newt; I will offer next Sunday's Mass for you and all you love.

And

The Lord is calling his flock home, I am witnessing this just about everyday, especially with our Protestant friends. Praise Jesus!

 

[DMcFadden]

The Lord is calling his flock home, I am witnessing this just about everyday, especially with our Protestant friends. Praise Jesus!

Gil, that was the reason I posted my mention of Newt's conversion. As the RC fellow said that you quoted above, there does seem to be a continuing stream of notables crossing over to catholicism (e.g., then head of the ETS Francis Beckwith).

Most distressing and perplexing. My successor in one of my pastorates served seven years (happily?) and then announced on a Sunday morning to his Baptist congregation that he was converting to the Roman church. Now he is a noted "apologist" who travels around speaking on how to evangelize Protestants. Ironically, he had been a Bahnsen devotee prior to his crossing the Tiber.

 

[Edward]

I'm glad that she wasn't a Moonie or a Mormon!

I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'm not sure that the Baptist or Westminster confessions would agree.

 

[DMcFadden]

I'm glad that she wasn't a Moonie or a Mormon!

I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'm not sure that the Baptist or Westminster confessions would agree.

Sorry for mixing apples and oranges. At the risk of getting into politics . . . someone with Newt's intellectual horsepower on the Moonie side would be just too weird for my tastes. I was not expressing approbation for RC doctrine. There are a whole host of other things Callista might have believed (outside of the theological arena) that would also have been quite weird for me.

My larger point was that Newt stands in a long line of other converts to Rome that I find distressing.
My subordinate point was that in his case it seems to have been motivated more by his spouse's views than by independent theological examination. What if she was into the aluminum foil headgear to protect against alien mind reading???

 

[Grace Alone]

My first thought was, if he has been married three times, doesn't that lead one to the possibility that he is not a Christian (unless he was widowed twice)? So it is not surprising at all to me.

 

[Edward]

At the risk of getting into politics . . . someone with Newt's intellectual horsepower on the Moonie side would be just too weird for my tastes.

Well, the Moonies did used to be strong conservative allies in the political arena.

I was not expressing approbation for RC doctrine. There are a whole host of other things Callista might have believed (outside of the theological arena) that would also have been quite weird for me.

I'm not familiar with her beliefs, and the RC label isn't really very useful in helping sort them out.

My larger point was that Newt stands in a long line of other converts to Rome that I find distressing.

That's probably a reflection of the shallowness of much of what passes for Evangelical thought today. Many Evangelicals will turn to Calvin, or Rome, or a cult, or just drift away.

My subordinate point was that in his case it seems to have been motivated more by his spouse's views than by independent theological examination.

Just another reflection of the weakness of Newt's moral compass.

-----Added 4/5/2009 at 09:14:08 EST-----

My first thought was, if he has been married three times, doesn't that lead one to the possibility that he is not a Christian (unless he was widowed twice)? So it is not surprising at all to me.

He took the divorce papers to his first wife while she was in the hospital being treated for cancer.

I'm not sure the descriptions of some of his other activities are suitable for this board.

 

[Ivan]

Southern Baptist or Catholic. Not much difference, I guess.

One celebrates the Mass and the other celebrates having a mass of people.

Uh, excuse me...

 

[DMcFadden]

Edward, I agree. For such a brilliant strategist, he seems fairly tone deaf theologically. I was not suggesting that Callista holds "weird" views, merely that Newt's conversion seems motivated in large part by his current domestic situation. It reminds me of the Hollywood starlet who left the RC church to join her husband's Dianetics cult. If he can kick over the traces so easily and move from Baptist to Roman Catholic, what else might he have been willing to embrace?

 

[DMcFadden]

Southern Baptist or Catholic. Not much difference, I guess.

One celebrates the Mass and the other celebrates having a mass of people.

Uh, excuse me...

Aw comeon, Ivan. We both know that the SBC is famous for their emphasis upon numbers. I have just trying to tweak your nose a bit with a twist on the word "mass." I have no problem differentiating Baptists from Catholics. Your new picture does look a bit cardinal-esque, however. Or at least a bishop.

 

[asc]

I don't think he was one of you or me. Actually, he identified with Alex's group!

Doh!

Well, i'll be the first to admit that the SBC is very mixed bag. But from what's been posted of his personal life, maybe it's good that he left the SBC: let him disgrace the RC church with his membership for a change.

 

[Ivan]

Southern Baptist or Catholic. Not much difference, I guess.

One celebrates the Mass and the other celebrates having a mass of people.

Uh, excuse me...

Aw comeon, Ivan. We both know that the SBC is famous for their emphasis upon numbers. I have just trying to tweak your nose a bit with a twist on the word "mass." I have no problem differentiating Baptists from Catholics. Your new picture does look a bit cardinal-esque, however. Or at least a bishop.

It is my critical eyes looking at you!

Here is the upper Midwest Southern Baptist rarely emphasize numbers, believe me.

I had 27 today...hardly a mass.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

According to one report I heard, his first two marriages have been annulled by the Roman Church. In other words, they were not marriages, they didn’t exist. That’s convenient for Gingrich and the church, making his former adulteries and desertions non-existent.

 

[asc]

According to one report I heard, his first two marriages have been annulled by the Roman Church. In other words, they were not marriages, they didn’t exist. That’s convenient for Gingrich and the church, making his former adulteries and desertions non-existent.

I don't know much about the RC church, but if they annul his marriage doesn't that then mean he's guilty of fornication with his previous "wives"?

 

[AThornquist]

I don't know much about the RC church, but if they annul his marriage doesn't that then mean he's guilty of fornication with his previous "wives"?

Annulled. Don't you understand what grace means? (I'm kidding on the latter, of course)

Did he have any children in his previous non-existent marriages and sexual relations? If so, are they annulled also?

 

[Rangerus]

Poor Newt. I would have thought he would have been reading his Bible all along.

 

[Reformed Thomist]

My larger point was that Newt stands in a long line of other converts to Rome that I find distressing.

A lot of it is due to us, in particular, our misrepresenting the teachings of the RC religion. The number one thing I hear from converts to Roman Catholicism from Evangelical backgrounds goes something like, "I was always told in church that Catholics believed this, and Catholics believed that... but upon learning about the Catholic faith it became apparent that these charges were false." This can have the effect of something like a 'revelation' to the Protestant who is undergoing spiritual hardships and struggles, or whose faith isn't as strong as it should be. "All these years, I've been lied to..."

Tip: Despite the author's heart being in the right place -- and he being a tremendous theologian -- Loraine Boettner's Roman Catholicism is full of erroneous attributions to and misunderstandings of RC dogma and doctrine. And this book has served as a kind of 'anti-Catholic Bible' in conservative Evangelical circles since its publication, the great go-to source for Calvinists in particular.

I would strongly encourage any Protestant who makes it his or her business to critique Roman Catholicism to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it well. Really knowing thy enemy involves working past those points which are accurately described as belonging to cultural anti-Catholic ideology, which are of no help to anyone.

 

[Edward]

I would strongly encourage any Protestant who makes it his or her business to critique Roman Catholicism to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study it well. Really knowing thy enemy involves working past those points which are accurately described as belonging to cultural anti-Catholic ideology, which are of no help to anyone.

Good advice; can be found here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents

also see the Code of Canon Law for the RC church:

Code of Canon Law

One important thing to keep in mind, however, is what has been widely taught in the RC church in America in recent years differs greatly from what would be found in Europe, or the 3rd world. So just because a convert has been taught differently doesn't mean that he has been taught correctly as to Roman theology. Fortunately, the current Pope is taking steps to address that problem, which will make it easier, in the long term, to engage the issues.

 

[Reformed Thomist]

One important thing to keep in mind, however, is what has been widely taught in the RC church in America in recent years differs greatly from what would be found in Europe, or the 3rd world. So just because a convert has been taught differently doesn't mean that he has been taught correctly as to Roman theology...

Exactly.

If we could only get Roman Catholics to actually believe what their Church teaches. Er...

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

If we could only get Roman Catholics to actually believe what their Church teaches. Er...

I’m all for accurately portraying Roman Catholic belief and practice. It is also more diverse than Protestants assume.

Roman Catholics can make good Presbyterians, because they often have a high view of the church, discipline, and understand sound doctrine can be stated in creeds.

However, at its best, Romanism is deficient in its understanding of authority, and the gospel. The pope, council or church is not and can not be the ultimate voice of God, a substitute for scripture; nor can the church add to salvation by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ’s once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice. Dwell on these issues and you won’t malign the Romanists, and you will be pointing out the most important issues for Protestants contemplating Rome to consider.

 

[Reformed Thomist]

However, at its best, Romanism is deficient in its understanding of authority, and the gospel. The pope, council or church is not and can not be the ultimate voice of God, a substitute for scripture...

True.

Important to note, I think: The 'best' of Roman Catholics do read Scripture, but they do so in a very different way than what is the Protestant ideal. Often these kinds of statements make one think that this is a matter of method, and while methodology plays a part, the heart of the matter lies in what may be termed dueling authorities.

For the Roman Catholic, because of his or her belief that the Magisterium of the Church cannot err (what the Church officially teaches regarding faith and morals must be the truth; this is an article of faith), Scripture is not read in pursuit of truth as such. The Bible is, so to speak, the 'raw data' of Divine Revelation, and it is the job of the Church authorities to translate this data into the specific, binding dogmas and doctrines of Christianity. But all the real work of interpretation has been done long ago, and the individual Catholic is free to simply treat Scripture as some benign -- if God-breathed -- spiritual/devotional reading. There is no need to 'get one's hands dirty' with Scriptural exegesis. If one's reading is confusing, or doesn't seem to ring of 'Roman Catholicism' at some point, it's no big deal, no cause for struggling with the text, seeking God's message to man -- the Church is the final authority. Just trust in the Church to formulate the Word of God for you. This formulating 'Tradition' is, in fact, equally the Word of God with Scripture. Scripture, doncha know, is, after all, just a product of this Tradition (the Church predating the New Testament writings, the Churchinfallibly declaring which ones were canonical, etc).

The real study of Scripture -- treating Scripture as Scripture in the Reformed sense -- is something that just isn't necessary in this framework. It might well be dangerous...