Nazism a Worldview?

[amishrockstar]

Is Nazism a worldview, or does it come from a worldview?
Is evolution a worldview, or does it come from a worldview (e.g. Atheism)?
What about humanism?

I've heard Bible teachers say that evolution and humanism are
worldviews, but aren't those ideas (ideologies) that flow
from a worldview?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Christoffer]

Nazism is short for the word national socialism. Thus the idea is collectivism - society as seen as a collective and has to strive as a unit towards the common good. The individual has no rights other than those granted him by the state, and these are relative to the benefit he can have in attaining the common good. Thus man is just an asset to be used.

Essentially, there is no difference between communism and nazism/fascism. In both you will have exterminate certain classes of people in order to attain the common good. Economic freedom will have to be limited in order for the plans of the government to materialize.

I would say that all of these share a worldview - the one that rejects God and believes the lie; namely that man can be like gods and shape his own destiny and create heaven on earth.

 

[Scott1]

Marxism/Leninism is a world view (as is Christianity).

There are several main components to a world view.

For example, Marxism/Leninism:
economics is socialism
philosophy is dialectical materialism
theology is atheism
biology is punctuated evolution

Christianity:
economics is stewardship of property
philosophy is supernaturalism
theology is trinitarian theism
biology is creationism

In the end, Facism and Communism are representative of basically the same world view, completely contrary to Christianity, philosophies made of the vane imaginations of men.

In the economic realm, they are two sides of the same coin, the one government control of the use of property, the other government ownership of property. Both systems remove basic private property rights and stewardship.

 

[VictorBravo]

Part of the problem is that "worldview" is a term with multiple degrees of meaning. Some people use it to describe an orientation or filter through which one (or a society) views information. Other people use it to mean the fundamental and core beliefs of a person or society that can never be questioned without violence. (I heard Bahnsen define it in this way).

So, sometimes the term "worldview" is a decidedly subjective term. For example, one atheist who is pressed to believe in God may react violently (not necessarily with violence) because his core identifying value is being challenged. Another atheist might just shrug his shoulders because his atheistic beliefs are not core, but merely something he casually has put on. In that sense, the two do not share worldviews.

But in the other, objective, sense, as in the sense of filtering information, they may be said to share worldviews.

Same, of course, can be said of Christians. Some pay lip service to God's sovereignty, but it is not a core belief. Others hold it as a core belief.

So, Nazism can be said to be a worldview objectively in that there is a party-line that people adhere to and filter their thoughts through, but not every person who follows Nazism has it as a core belief. Many did drop Nazism when the political winds shifted because it was not fundamental to their being.

 

[etexas]

A Shall (assume you speak of the Germanic Nazism) THUSLY forgive me if I am wrong: If I am correct you could well call such a "worldview" (however warped) I state this due to the influence that the Nihilistic Philosophers had over German leadership....also add to this a "revival" of pre-Christian neo-pagan growth amoung both the masses AND the well educated, and you have a "worldview"....vile....horrid...wicked....(one ONLY need look at the outcome) ,so yes....................there was worldview, all things human come (good or ill) from worldview! We have no ex-nihilo "collective" mind!!!!! Period! A worldview drives such things.

 

[LawrenceU]

Christoffer and Scott both said what I would have written. So, I will not repeat that. It was either Himmler or Goebels that said upon the Nazi German invasion of Russia that, '. . . now we will show them what true Socialism looks like.', or something to that effect. It is a common fallacy to teach that Nazism is far right and Communism is far left. They are both radical leftist positions (using right/left in the conventional American usage).

 

[amishrockstar]

Thanks for all the replies.
They're a big help.

Matthew

 

[Rich Koster]

Don't forget that Hitler was loosely RC and had a pact with the Vatican. He wanted religion that would support his agenda, or at least not oppose it. He would eliminate the remainder. That makes Naziism different from Communism. Also, most RC's consider themselves rightists in USA. This doesn't change the truth, but I believe RC Nazis would falsely view themselves rightist when comparing some values to US RC's (along the religion and family values lines).

 

[Dieter Schneider]

The Nazi ideology is based on 'racism' (Scripture teaches there only is one human race). Like all forms of atheism, it is Anti-Semitic. The real God is replaced with ideal man. One does, of course, find traces of Nietzsche and Darwin in Nazism. A good starting point would be to read the 25 articles of the NSDAP (found here).
I'd also refer friends to my blog for further information, esp. on the Barmen Declaration.

 

[Edward]

While antisemitism and Hitler worship were the common grounds of Nazi thought, there was a fairly wide range of thought within the movement, particularly before the Night of the Long Knives, when the socialist wing was liquidated.

The world views of the Otto Strasser on one side and Fritz Thyssen on the other would have been quite different, although both were good Nazis before each fled at different times for different reasons.

 

[buggy]

Don't forget that Hitler was loosely RC and had a pact with the Vatican. He wanted religion that would support his agenda, or at least not oppose it. He would eliminate the remainder. That makes Naziism different from Communism. Also, most RC's consider themselves rightists in USA. This doesn't change the truth, but I believe RC Nazis would falsely view themselves rightist when comparing some values to US RC's (along the religion and family values lines).

I was told that the Nazis wiped out many biblically orthodox pastors/ministers and replaced them with apostates - which is probably why Christianity went on a nosedive after WW2 in conteinental Europe - especially in once solidly-Reformed Netherlands. Even the RC priests were not spared either.

 

[Rich Koster]

Don't forget that Hitler was loosely RC and had a pact with the Vatican. He wanted religion that would support his agenda, or at least not oppose it. He would eliminate the remainder. That makes Naziism different from Communism. Also, most RC's consider themselves rightists in USA. This doesn't change the truth, but I believe RC Nazis would falsely view themselves rightist when comparing some values to US RC's (along the religion and family values lines).

I was told that the Nazis wiped out many biblically orthodox pastors/ministers and replaced them with apostates - which is probably why Christianity went on a nosedive after WW2 in conteinental Europe - especially in once solidly-Reformed Netherlands. Even the RC priests were not spared either.

The one's that saw Hitler's error and voiced out, offered aid/assylum to Jews or didn't toe they party line were eliminated in spite of RC alliance. A Reformed minister would by default be an enemy of the state because of stated loyalty to Christ and his teachings.

BTW, some of my ancestors were Nazi's and some fled Germany during the uprising. I have German propaganda( sent from Germany to the states) in my possession that tries to pass off Hitler as the great example for all men to follow.....

 

[kvanlaan]

Remember too that the appeal to old-time paganism was big in the upper ranks of the SS. Norse gods, etc. - the SS insignia itself is based on runes. I read something about my own 'tribe', the Frisians, being respected by the Nazis due to their racial purity and general warlike and independent history (see the Battle of Baduhennawood against the Romans). These people tended to stay in the same place (my own family has been mostly from the same few counties since at least the 1400's) and thus did not 'interbreed' with any 'untermensch'. Many of the Nazi rituals are decidedly old-school pagan as well (the blessing of battle flags, etc.).

 

[TimV]

A Reformed minister would by default be an enemy of the state because of stated loyalty to Christ and his teachings.

With the tens of thousands of Christian leaders in Germany at the time, it should be easy to make a list of 10 or so who were taken from their pulpits for preaching the Reformed faith. I doubt anyone can do it though. To find an example of wholesale persecution of orthodox Christian leaders one has to go to the Allied camp, specifically the Soviets.

 

[Edward]

A Reformed minister would by default be an enemy of the state because of stated loyalty to Christ and his teachings.

With the tens of thousands of Christian leaders in Germany at the time, it should be easy to make a list of 10 or so who were taken from their pulpits for preaching the Reformed faith. I doubt anyone can do it though. To find an example of wholesale persecution of orthodox Christian leaders one has to go to the Allied camp, specifically the Soviets.

Perhaps if you would supply the list of all of the reformed pastors in Nazi Germany 1933-1945, we could track down those folks and make the 'easy' list for you.

 

[TimV]

Perhaps if you would supply the list of all of the reformed pastors in Nazi Germany 1933-1945, we could track down those folks and make the 'easy' list for you.

On whom is the burden of proof when accusations of that magnitude are made ;-)

 

[Scott1]

Rich Koster
Don't forget that Hitler was loosely RC and had a pact with the Vatican. He wanted religion that would support his agenda, or at least not oppose it. He would eliminate the remainder. That makes Naziism different from Communism. Also, most RC's consider themselves rightists in USA. This doesn't change the truth, but I believe RC Nazis would falsely view themselves rightist when comparing some values to US RC's (along the religion and family values lines).

I think I understand what you are saying, he and his party institutionalized the churches, which were state run (Lutheran north, Catholic south) and made them part of his government power structure. Those who opposed that were persecuted mercilessly (e.g. Dietrich Bonhoeffer).

But it would be untrue, a slander even to insinuate he was Christian, even a Roman Catholic- not only because never regularly attended church, but because he officially never identified himself as Catholic, using instead terms like "nonsectarian." There is more evidence he was a Satan worshiper than a practicing Roman Catholic and we ought not even allow a hint of that to cause people to stumble over Christianity.

buggy
I was told that the Nazis wiped out many biblically orthodox pastors/ministers and replaced them with apostates - which is probably why Christianity went on a nosedive after WW2 in conteinental Europe - especially in once solidly-Reformed Netherlands. Even the RC priests were not spared either.

There is good evidence evangelical Christians were a significant group he and his power structure persecuted (because they wanted nothing to do with Christ).

In fact, Hitler made some outrageously offensive statements about Christ- we have no basis to believe he was ever practicing Roman Catholic, let alone Christian. He hated Christ, and by derivation, Christians.

kvanlaan
Remember too that the appeal to old-time paganism was big in the upper ranks of the SS. Norse gods, etc. - the SS insignia itself is based on runes.

The more one delves into this movement the more one sees false religion and its indicia everywhere. Their symbol itself was a twisted symbol of Hinduism to start with.

Inasmuch as someone blinded by sin can know anything, the people who defined Nazism knew they had a satanic, pagan anti-Christian world view and they taught it in all its aspects-
even if those under that influence did not understand it as the world view it was, and was intennded to be by its promoters.

 

[TimV]

I think I understand what you are saying, he and his party institutionalized the churches, which were state run (Lutheran north, Catholic south) and made them part of his government power structure. Those who opposed that were persecuted mercilessly (e.g. Dietrich Bonhoeffer).

The Catholics were already organized under a Bishop, but there were 33 Protestant sects/denominations in Germany at the time, so the Government created the post of Bishop of the Reich to facilitate communications with Protestants. That's were the story of Niemoller came in, since he agitated for himself to be given the position, but others of the nazi leadership were wary of him (not because of his Christianity!) and gave the post to a guy named Miller. Niemoller wouldn't stop his politicking and was sent to Buchenwald, again, not for his Christianity. Bonhoeffer was another example of persecution having nothing to do Christianity. He was working as a double agent for the nazi equivalent of the CIA and was executing for participating in a plot to kill a duly constituted head of state during a time of war.

99% of what assumes about WW2 is propaganda. There were many fine nazi Christians, and stories of German Christians hauled away just for preaching the Gospel are 99% bearing false witness. Again, you've got to go to the Allies for that sort of behavior, at least on a large scale.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Something I've never really understood: I know that the Nazi's didn't like communists, and vice versa, yet in practice they same to look similar (i.e., state control over everything). What is/are the differences between Nazism and Communism?

 

[TimV]

You could say the Soviets said "You farmers are too dumb to know what to plant, so we will tell you" or "you business owners only care about yourselves, so we will tell you what to make" and the nazis would say "you farmers are the best in the world. Grow what you want and be proud!! (we'll just tell you how much you can sell your crops for, and to whom) or "you industrialists are the best in the world! But we want you to pay your workers more, and for the next 5 years we want you to produce tanks instead of tractors, and while you can do all the designs etc.. on your own, we'll set the amount of profit you can make".

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------

And in religion, the Soviets would replace pastors and Bishops with their own people. The nazis would leave existing institutions in place, but limit their freedom of speech to one degree or another.

 

[Scott1]

Bonhoeffer was another example of persecution having nothing to do Christianity. He was working as a double agent for the nazi equivalent of the CIA and was executing for participating in a plot to kill a duly constituted head of state during a time of war.

There is a rich and detailed history here, and this might be subject of a thread by itself.

But I think the context was Hitler and the Nazis seizing control of churches as an arm of the government and as a means of government control, Mr. Bonhoeffer's campaign against that was the backdrop.

Bonhoeffer saw a political corrupting of the churches by Nazism (a world view antithetical to Christianity), and opposed it because Bonhoeffer was a committed Christian, willing to suffer for that.

Just remember, Bonhoeffer had written his doctoral thesis "Sanctorum Communio" long before that so he was heavily into Christian theology long before he saw Nazism replacing Christianity in those churches.

As for

There were many fine nazi Christians, and stories of German Christians hauled away just for preaching the Gospel are 99% bearing false witness.

Just can't buy that.

Nazism, a world view, is completely opposed to Christianity.

There is no way one could have two masters like this- maybe to be initially, temporarily deceived. But not any more possible than a born again Christian accidentally going into a Buddhist Temple and staying on there indefinitely.

 

[TimV]

But I think the context was Hitler and the Nazis seizing control of churches as an arm of the government and as a means of government control, Mr. Bonhoeffer's campaign against that was the backdrop.

But Scott, it just didn't happen. Period. You're usually good in modern history, and I don't know where you're getting this!

Just can't buy that.

Nazism, a world view, is completely opposed to Christianity.

It's not for you to buy. There are fine Christians even here on this forum who voted Democrat in the last election, and others who admitted outright they support foreign intervention against Israel's enemies. So what? We all come to understanding at a different times. Nazism is wrong. So what? Read what Cromwell said about democracy sometime.

 

[Scott1]

Tim, I'm not exactly sure what is disputed.

Are you saying that Hitler did not consolidate (German) state control over churches as part of the Nazi rise to power?

And that Mr. Bohnhoeffer was not opposing that on Christian, theological grounds?

(I'm not going to address the "fine nazi Christians" comment because frankly it is blatantly, obviously self contradictory on its face, an analogy might be "fine Marxist Christians," when it is a world view, that is by definition atheism by theology.)

 

[TimV]

Tim, I'm not exactly sure what is disputed.

Are you saying that Hitler did not consolidate (German) state control over churches as part of the Nazi rise to power?

No, he didn't have the power. You are perhaps thinking about the Soviet model. The nazi rise to power ended in 1933.

And that Mr. Bohnhoeffer was not opposing that on Christian, theological grounds?

Pastor Bonhoeffer wasn't orthodox Christian, but Barthian. And I'm not making things up by saying he was a double agent. It's not exactly hidden knowledge. He wasn't hung because of the 5 points of Calvinism. I'm not saying that that particular "people's court" was legal. But that would take some drawing out.

 

[Scott1]

To support the proposition that Hitler consolidated his power through state control of churches as the Nazi's rose to power, I'll offer a summary.

I realize Wikipedia summaries are not necessarily accurate, and not authoritative without primary source citations so those are included and accessible by link:

(If this particular point wants to be debated further, another thread would be appropriate)

Wikipedia entry Dietrich Bohnhoeffer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

Confessing Church

Bonhoeffer's promising academic and ecclesiastical career was dramatically altered with Nazi accession to power on January 30, 1933. He was a determined opponent of the regime from its first days. Two days after Hitler was installed as Chancellor, Bonhoeffer delivered a radio address attacking Hitler, in which he warned Germany against slipping into an idolatrous cult of the Führer (leader), who could very well turn out to be Verführer (mis-leader, or seducer). He was cut off the air in the middle of a sentence.[3] In April, he raised the first and virtually lone voice for church resistance to Hitler's persecution of Jews when he declared that the church must not simply "bandage the victims under the wheel, but jam the spoke in the wheel itself." [11] Bonhoeffer then put all his efforts in campaigning for the election of presbyters and synodals in July, which Hitler had unconstitutionally imposed onto all German Protestant church bodies.

Even before Nazi seizure of power, there had been struggle within the Evangelical Church of the old Prussian Church between nationalistic German Christian movement and Young Reformers in the constitutional church election in November 1932, which now threatened to explode into schism. Despite Bonhoeffer's efforts, an overwhelming majority of Nazi-supported German Christians won key church positions in the rigged July election.[12] The German Christians won a majority within the general synod of the Evangelical Church of the old-Prussian Union and within its provincial synods - except of the one of Westphalia - as well as in many synods of other Protestant church bodies, except of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bavaria right of the river Rhine, the Evangelical Lutheran State Church of Hanover, and the Lutheran Evangelical State Church in Württemberg, which the opposition thus regarded as uncorrupted "intact churches", as opposed to the other then so-called "destroyed churches".

Bonhoeffer urged an interdict upon all pastoral services (baptisms, weddings, funerals, etc) in opposition to Nazification, but Barth and others advised against such a radical proposal.[13]

In August 1933, Bonhoeffer and Hermann Sasse were deputed by opposition church leaders to draft the Bethel Confession, a new statement of faith in opposition to the German Christians. Notable for affirming God's faithfulness to Jews as His chosen people, the Bethel Confession was however so watered down to make it more palatable that later Bonhoeffer himself refused to sign. In September 1933, Bonhoeffer helped form the Pfarrernotbund with his colleague Martin Niemöller, a forerunner to the Confessing Church that was to be organized in May 1934 at Barmen in opposition to the Nazi-supported German Christian movement.[14]

The Confessing Church was not large, but it represented a major source of Christian opposition to the Nazi government. The Barmen Declaration, drafted by Karl Barth and adopted by the Confessing Church, insisted that Christ, not the Führer, was the head of the church. However, most streamlined Protestant church bodies and the newly established Nazi-submissive German Evangelical Church, shaped by long traditions of nationalism and obedience to state authority in their functions as state churches (until 1918), for the most part acquiesced to Nazification of the church. In September 1933, the church Aryan paragraph prohibiting non-Aryans from taking parish posts was approved by the national church synod at Wittenberg. When Bonhoeffer was offered such a post in eastern Berlin, he refused it in protest of the racist policy.[15]

 

[TimV]

Hey, Scott

I've got a few nice references, and I'd love to talk about this further, but as you probably expect, a wiki source isn't something that I'm inclined to answer to.

 

[py3ak]

99% of what assumes about WW2 is propaganda. There were many fine nazi Christians, and stories of German Christians hauled away just for preaching the Gospel are 99% bearing false witness. Again, you've got to go to the Allies for that sort of behavior, at least on a large scale.

Is that one of the 83.4% of statistics that are made up on the spot?

 

[Mushroom]

There were many fine nazi Christians

Tim, you know I love you, brother, but my first reaction to that statement is sarcasm, as in "That's why it was such a fine Christian movement."

I am not understanding your desire to present yourself as a Nazi apologist. Sure, we should want to get our history right, and I'm in agreement that the USA's alliance with the USSR was a travesty, but there is no possibility that "fine Christians" would have knowingly agreed with the ideology of Hitler.

 

[Edward]

Something I've never really understood: I know that the Nazi's didn't like communists, and vice versa, yet in practice they same to look similar (i.e., state control over everything). What is/are the differences between Nazism and Communism?

Well, if you were a civilian in Poland, your odds of getting killed by the Nazis or the Communists was about the same if you were a Christian. If you were Jewish, however, you were about twice as likely to be killed by the Nazis as by the Reds.

Remember that the Nazi economic system was largely a fascist one. What the Nazis added was a racial theology.

In that context, one of the key differences was ownership - Communists would nationalize industry and farms (either directly or into collectives). Nazis would leave private ownership in place (at least if you weren't Jewish) but would direct the economy.

For example, during the run up to the war, and even during the war, the Nazis required partial local ownership of the Ford properties there, but never nationalized the plant. A fair amount of government control was exercised through the allocation of resources.

From a religion standpoint, the reds would physically demolish the churches or convert them to secular use and demolish religious symbols (but even here, it must be noted that there was a period during the war when Stalin did permit a small resurgence of religion to try to stiffen the people.) The communists viewed religion as an enemy, the nazis viewed it as another instrument which must be steered.

 

[Kevin]

as I considered responding to this thread, I kept saying to myself, "remember, no one knows anything about Germany, remember, no one..."

Tim is correct. Neimoller was a "party member". He was sometimes refered to as the "party padre" . After his falling out with the leadership he became an anti-Hitler partisan, and ultimately a conspiritaor.

Please keep in mind that there were many "nazi" christians. just as there ar many "republican" or "democratic" christians. I know christians that are members of the green party & that are socialists. I also know a good many that are neo-cons!