Mercy and Justice

[earl40]

Think of mercy and wrath as being expressions of God toward creation which are out workings of His eternal righteousness and love. There is nothing God does that does not please Himself.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Think of mercy and wrath as being expressions of God toward creation which are out workings of His eternal righteousness and love. There is nothing God does that does not please Himself.

And I agree with that! The only objection I am raising here, is the REASON why everything pleases Him, and that REASON is not found in things themselves.

 

[KMK]

It might be helpful to keep in mind Rom 1:16-18. God's justice is revealed in general revelation while His mercy is revealed in special revelation. There is no need for special revelation (God's Word) to establish justice since it has already been revealed in the natural world. On the flip side, God's Word would necessarily focus on establishing God's mercy. This does not imply that God loves one His attributes more than another.

 

[earl40]

Think of mercy and wrath as being expressions of God toward creation which are out workings of His eternal righteousness and love. There is nothing God does that does not please Himself.

And I agree with that! The only objection I am raising here, is the REASON why everything pleases Him, and that REASON is not found in things themselves.

I am not sure of this because the reason He punishes sinners is because they are sinners in themselves.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Think of mercy and wrath as being expressions of God toward creation which are out workings of His eternal righteousness and love. There is nothing God does that does not please Himself.

And I agree with that! The only objection I am raising here, is the REASON why everything pleases Him, and that REASON is not found in things themselves.

I am not sure of this because the reason He punishes sinners is because they are sinners in themselves.

The further reason for that is because sinners contradict God's law, and God is holy in His justice.

You see, everything leads back to God. The reason for everything God does comes back to who He is.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Earl,

I don't believe God's good pleasure is the ultimate reason for His actions, but that this good pleasure is in accordance to His nature which is the ultimate reason both to His good pleasure and His will and actions that follow that pleasure. I think it is Biblical to say the nature of a person determines his/her desire, and desire will, and will action.

 

[earl40]

Earl,

I don't believe God's good pleasure is the ultimate reason for His actions, but that this good pleasure is in accordance to His nature which is the ultimate reason both to His good pleasure and His will and actions that follow that pleasure. I think it is Biblical to say the nature of a person determines his/her desire, and desire will, and will action.

I agree this this comes down to His nature. Was God not eternally just before He created creatures? Was he not eternally loving before creation? Now of course God did not express mercy or justice "before" creation because there was no fallen creature to express mercy or justice towards. His expression of mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature which are pleasing to Him, and those expressions are pleasing to Himself which of course arise from his nature.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Earl,

I don't believe God's good pleasure is the ultimate reason for His actions, but that this good pleasure is in accordance to His nature which is the ultimate reason both to His good pleasure and His will and actions that follow that pleasure. I think it is Biblical to say the nature of a person determines his/her desire, and desire will, and will action.

I agree this this comes down to His nature. Was God not eternally just before He created creatures? Was he not eternally loving before creation? Now of course God did not express mercy or justice "before" creation because there was no fallen creature to express mercy or justice towards. His expression of mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature which are pleasing to Him, and those expressions are pleasing to Himself which of course arise from his nature.

Earl,

I think I now understand what the problem was. As you said, "mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature," however, this does not mean the RESULT of those expressions is pleasing to Himself IN AND OF ITSELF. The suffering of a person is meaningless and without value in and of itself, and so is the salvation of a person from God's wrath. As a key point here, everything needs to be linked to God to have meaning and value.

 

[earl40]

Earl,

I think I now understand what the problem was. As you said, "mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature," however, this does not mean the RESULT of those expressions is pleasing to Himself IN AND OF ITSELF. The suffering of a person is meaningless and without value in and of itself, and so is the salvation of a person from God's wrath. As a key point here, everything needs to be linked to God to have meaning and value.

Overall I think we agree in that the wrath God exhibits to the reprobate in hell flow from His nature, and that the meaning and value of that wrath do have value "in and of itself" to demonstrate His just nature and how He was merciful to us before glory. For I have no doubt that we will see God demonstrating His wrath before our eyes forever.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Earl,

I think I now understand what the problem was. As you said, "mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature," however, this does not mean the RESULT of those expressions is pleasing to Himself IN AND OF ITSELF. The suffering of a person is meaningless and without value in and of itself, and so is the salvation of a person from God's wrath. As a key point here, everything needs to be linked to God to have meaning and value.

Overall I think we agree in that the wrath God exhibits to the reprobate in hell flow from His nature, and that the meaning and value of that wrath do have value "in and of itself" to demonstrate His just nature and how He was merciful to us before glory. For I have no doubt that we will see God demonstrating His wrath before our eyes forever.

NONONONO! You're not getting what I'm saying. God's WRATH is good in and of itself, BUT the RESULT of that, i.e. the suffering of a person is not. You see?

 

[earl40]

Earl,

I think I now understand what the problem was. As you said, "mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature," however, this does not mean the RESULT of those expressions is pleasing to Himself IN AND OF ITSELF. The suffering of a person is meaningless and without value in and of itself, and so is the salvation of a person from God's wrath. As a key point here, everything needs to be linked to God to have meaning and value.

Overall I think we agree in that the wrath God exhibits to the reprobate in hell flow from His nature, and that the meaning and value of that wrath do have value "in and of itself" to demonstrate His just nature and how He was merciful to us before glory. For I have no doubt that we will see God demonstrating His wrath before our eyes forever.

NONONONO! You're not getting what I'm saying. God's WRATH is good in and of itself, BUT the RESULT of that, i.e. the suffering of a person is not. You see?

The suffering is indeed bad and not good for them in hell, but good for us and God. Sorry if I don't understand if you are making a different point I am conveying. I simply just don't see it.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Earl,

I think I now understand what the problem was. As you said, "mercy and wrath are expressions of His nature," however, this does not mean the RESULT of those expressions is pleasing to Himself IN AND OF ITSELF. The suffering of a person is meaningless and without value in and of itself, and so is the salvation of a person from God's wrath. As a key point here, everything needs to be linked to God to have meaning and value.

Overall I think we agree in that the wrath God exhibits to the reprobate in hell flow from His nature, and that the meaning and value of that wrath do have value "in and of itself" to demonstrate His just nature and how He was merciful to us before glory. For I have no doubt that we will see God demonstrating His wrath before our eyes forever.

NONONONO! You're not getting what I'm saying. God's WRATH is good in and of itself, BUT the RESULT of that, i.e. the suffering of a person is not. You see?

The suffering is indeed bad and not good for them in hell, but good for us and God. Sorry if I don't understand if you are making a different point I am conveying. I simply just don't see it.

Don't you see how you just gave the suffering A GOOD REASON? But aside from any external reason, in and of itself, the suffering is meaningless.

 

[earl40]

Don't you see how you just gave the suffering A GOOD REASON? But aside from any external reason, in and of itself, the suffering is meaningless.

I guess I can almost see what you are saying. I can not see how any suffering can happen apart from anything in and of itself. Suffering is not a thing that stands alone but a reaction to outside forces. Sorry I must just be dense or something.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Don't you see how you just gave the suffering A GOOD REASON? But aside from any external reason, in and of itself, the suffering is meaningless.

I guess I can almost see what you are saying. I can not see how any suffering can happen apart from anything in and of itself. Suffering is not a thing that stands alone but a reaction to outside forces. Sorry I must just be dense or something.

I was not arguing how suffering can happen in and of itself, but how it has no meaning and value IF it is not somehow linked to God. All THINGS are the same. Anything created by God, whether by immediate or secondary cause (like sin), has to derive its meaning from its Creator. If we start with suffering, there is literally NOTHING; no meaning, no value; just plain suffering. But if we link this suffering to God, to give it a purpose for its existence, we begin to see why God would delight in it (or any other thing for that matter). As I said before, God only delights in Himself ultimately, and any THING He delights in, He delights in because it somehow reflects His own glory. God is not just everything to US, He is also everything to HIMSELF.

 

[earl40]

I was not arguing how suffering can happen in and of itself, but how it has no meaning and value IF it is not somehow linked to God. All THINGS are the same. Anything created by God, whether by immediate or secondary cause (like sin), has to derive its meaning from its Creator. If we start with suffering, there is literally NOTHING; no meaning, no value; just plain suffering. But if we link this suffering to God, to give it a purpose for its existence, we begin to see why God would delight in it (or any other thing for that matter). As I said before, God only delights in Himself ultimately, and any THING He delights in, He delights in because it somehow reflects His own glory. God is not just everything to US, He is also everything to HIMSELF.

I see we both agree that God delights in manifesting His justice, and we only can understand this if we see He is the ultimate cause of all that passes which will glorify Himself. I also can now see IF the suffering was not connected to God it simply is impossible to be something, In other words, an impossible situation. For God is the ultimate cause of all that passes, and His pleasure is derived from His own attributes.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

For God is the ultimate cause of all that passes, and His pleasure is derived from His own attributes.

Yes. And if we apply suffering to this picture, we can say, His pleasure of suffering is derived from His own attributes. This sentence, of course, is not to be understood as if the pleasure of suffering was something inherent to God's nature, but that He has pleasure in the particular cases of suffering He has freely decreed in eternity.

 

[earl40]

For God is the ultimate cause of all that passes, and His pleasure is derived from His own attributes.

Yes. And if we apply suffering to this picture, we can say, His pleasure of suffering is derived from His own attributes. This sentence, of course, is not to be understood as if the pleasure of suffering was something inherent to God's nature, but that He has pleasure in the particular cases of suffering He has freely decreed in eternity.