Is the Puritanboard Reformed? Some Think Not.

Status
Not open for further replies.

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Someone said just today, "This board" referring to the Puritanboard, "is not a good example of reformed theology." I'm curious to find out what people on the Puritanboard think overall.

I know that certain abberations of Reformed Theology have come down to us today. Some people believe that simply holding to election, for example, makes one "Reformed," or even "Calvinistic." I think being a "Reformed Christian" is MUCH more than just that. That's a watered down definition.

RC Sproul in his book "Grace Unknown" gives a very basic and simple overview of Reformed Theology in 5 foundational points, and then in 5 hallmarks of grace in the doctrines of grace. He says that historic Reformed Theology is 1) God centered, 2) Based on the Word of God Alone, 3) Committed to Faith Alone, 4) Devoted to the threfold offices of Christ, Prophet Priest and King, and 5) structured by 3 covenants in "Covenant Theology". (These three covenants Sproul says are the Covenant of Works, Covenant of Redemption, and Covenant of Grace). (I'd agree heartily with him!)

The term "Reformed" though, comes from an antagonistic use that Jochaim Westphal used as a Lutheran Theologian who vehemently disagreed with his contemporary John Calvin over the use of "sacraments" as laid out in the Institutes of the Christian Religion. Those who followed Calvin's ecclesiology, theology, and sacramentaology were "Reformed" and "Calvinistic." And according to Westphal, that was a BAD thing. (Obviously, some still think it is a bad thing today!)

If we traced Covenantal Reformed Theology through history, we would find it beginning with Christ and the Apostles (but that's a given) and then to Augustine and Irenaeus being the first who utilized the "covenant" to any extent in their writing. So, it is not surprising to see the Reformers and Puritans heavily quoting Augustine (or Austin) in their writings. Irenaeus taught 4 covenants that God made with men: Adamic, Noahic, Mosaic and the covenant under Jesus Christ. Gabriel Biel, in the 15th Century, made use of the idea of "œcovenant" to a relationship of justification. The progression continued in Oecolampadius (1482-1531) where he argued for the reality of the eternal covenant (or Covenant of Redemption to be later termed), Wolfgang Capito (1478-1541) made use of the covenant all through his commentary work on the Bible, and then came Ulrich Zwingli who defended the covenant against the Anabaptists. With Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575) the covenant concept began to take a more systematic shape and form. Bullinger defined God´s covenant as follows "œGod, in making of leagues, as He doth in all things else, applieth himself to our capacities, and imitateth the order which men use in making confederacies"¦and therefore, when God´s mind was to declare the favour and good-will that he bare to mankind"¦it pleased Him to make a league or covenant with mankind." Calvin then solidified this in his Institutes, which is smothered in these "covenantal" concepts. Others wrote extensively on the covenants: Wolfgang Musculus (1497-1563), Martin Buceer (1491-1551), Peter Martyr (1499-1562), and Andrew Hyperius (1511-1564). In peak form the covenant concepts come out in the Heidelberg Catechism written by Caspar Olevianus (1536-1587) and Zacharius Ursinus (1534-1583). Here we find the recognized principle of "œreally" a single covenant of grace running through all of redemptive history. Expressions of that covenant appear in the Noahic, Mosaic, and so on. Even William Tyndale (1494-1536) utilized the interpretive principle of the covenant as a hermeneutic for understanding all of Scripture.

The covenant was defined by the Reformers, but expanded and detailed by the Puritans, and Dutch Theologians, of the time. Dudly Fenner, William Perkins, Robert Rollock, John Preston, William Ames, John Owen, Samuel Rutherford and the Westminster Standards all portray a Paedo-Baptistic, covenantal, Federal Theology in fine detail. However, in a cogent and detailed form, there is no better outline of this system of thought than in Coccejus´ theological "œpupil," Herman Witsius. Witsius´ The Economy of the Covenants Between God and Man was the pinnacle work for both Britain and America after its publication. Witsius´ book should be considered a standard textbook for Reformed Theology "“ Covenantal Theology, which included infant inclusion in the New Testament covenant. In denying the basic tenants of what inclusion of the covenant means, this then treads upon the meaning of the sacrament (not ordnance), ultimately proving a discontinuity (or "œwall") between the Old Testament and New Testament to the extent that some form of dispensational thought cannot be avoided. It is actually created, even unknowingly, by those who reject the continued inclusion of infants in the covenant, or of Reformed Covenantal Theology. In other words, non-reformed folk do not see the covenant, as Fred Greco pointed out well, "as the historical Reformed distinction that the Covenant of Grace has a outward and inward administration, and that the non-elect are not really in the Covenant of Grace, but rather they only partake of its outward administration without the substance. This is the sum of what John means when he says: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19)."

Gabriel Martini said this same thing when he summarized, "People are either legally or communally within the Covenant of Grace."

Dr. Clark, who frequents this board, has an outstnading summary of the historic ideas surrounding Reformed Theology at this link: http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/Sentences.htm

(I just wish I had come up with it first!!)

Jonathan Edwards, following Peter Van Mastricht believed these covenatnal concepts to be the hallmark of biblical Christianity. Van Mastricht, in the book by Soli Deo Gloria called "œA Treatise on Regeneration," says, "œThe Reformed unanimously hold that there is no physical regenerating efficacy in baptism, but only a moral efficacy which consists in its being a sign and a seal of regeneration; that they also hold that the grace of regeneration is not confined to any sacrament, and yet believe that baptism is not a mere naked, useless sign, but a more efficacious sealing of the covenant of grace in regeneration to those who receive it agreeably to its institution, and also to elect infant of believers."

In these "distinctives" of Reformed Theology, one would hold to certain foundational truths that make "Reformed Theology" what it essential is. There should be key unifying concepts around:

Law and Gospel
Justification
The Covenant of Redemption
The Covenant of Works
The Covenant of Grace
The Sacraments and the Church

Without these concepts, one cannot possibly have "Reformed Theology."

Thus, do you think, overall, that this board is a good example, or a bad example of Reformed Theology?
 
Members online at the moment of post being placed:

Bladestunner316, blhowes, C. Matthew McMahon, db, Draught Horse, faydawg67117, LawrenceU, matthew, NaphtaliPress, Plimoth Thom, Puritanhead, Scott Bushey

Within 4 minutes of Matts post 2 people voted that it is NOT a good example:

These are the members that are presently online. Who said that it is a bad example and why?





[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Puritanhead
It's too Presbyterian... otherwise no cause for complaint.
;)

Ryan,
Does that detract from the historic reformed framework, or is that just a personal complaint?

This is not an inquisition. But the statement has been made and needs to be either supported or recanted.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
In my experience with reading this board, even since before I registered as a member, I have thought that sometimes the posts are infected with biblicist and fundamentalist types of interpretation, which I consider to be contrary to Matthew's definition of "Reformed". However, many biblicists and fundamentalists (who are quite present in our Reformed churches) confess, in word, the same theological points you have used to define "Reformed". However, I would suggest that it is possible to use the language of Matthew's definition of "Reformed", while at the same time mistaking the sola Scriptura principle for a fundamentalist and biblicist approach, which differs from a truly "Reformed" approach to Scripture alone.

I didn't vote, because I have seen some good and some bad in fairly balanced measure.

Brian

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by cultureshock]
 
I didn't vote "yes", but I definately didn't vote "no". That being said, does the person necessarily have to admit it? There might be a reason to remain silent.
 
What's a "biblicist" and a "fundamentalist" approach? If that means someone who believes the bible and its fundamentals (in additiion to Reformed distinctives) count me in.
 
Originally posted by matthew
I didn't vote "yes", but I definately didn't vote "no". That being said, does the person necessarily have to admit it? There might be a reason to remain silent.

Matthew,
No one needs to admit anything. However, if a judgment is made of this nature, one would think that to make such a charge, it could be adequately defended. As I said, this is not an inquisition but as a way to understand hiow one comes to their conclusion. The assertion is just that, an assertion that history does not support.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
Thank you, Scott. I agree that it would be good for the person to explain why they voted the way they did. If the board is in fact a poor representation of the Reformed faith, I would like to do something to change. At the same time, I can understand why some would be willing to give an opinion, without having the board at large know who they are.
 
According to Matts definition, yes, though there is disagreement on the sacraments. I would also add that the Regulative Principle of Worship has been a defining characteristic of the Reformed Faith. On the PB there is a wide range of opinion concerning the application of the RPW but general consensus that the principle is true.
 
Originally posted by Peter
What's a "biblicist" and a "fundamentalist" approach? If that means someone who believes the bible and its fundamentals (in additiion to Reformed distinctives) count me in.

:ditto:

I believe the Reformers, Puritan/Covenanters/and otherwise were pretty fundamentalistic. I don't see how being a fundamentalist is contrary to being reformed. :candle:
 
Originally posted by matthew
Thank you, Scott. I agree that it would be good for the person to explain why they voted the way they did. If the board is in fact a poor representation of the Reformed faith, I would like to do something to change. At the same time, I can understand why some would be willing to give an opinion, without having the board at large know who they are.

As I said, this is not an inquisition. Private is as private does. But, thats the point; if it is not a good example, by voting that way in not supporting it is silly-no? Thats the issue. It's a non sequitur.
 
Originally posted by Peter
What's a "biblicist" and a "fundamentalist" approach? If that means someone who believes the bible and its fundamentals (in additiion to Reformed distinctives) count me in.

In my understanding, "biblicist" and "fundamentalist" refer to a very literalistic reading of Scripture, which I believe is more the result of Modern rationalism (like Descartes) than Reformed Christian presupposition. Such a reading often absolutizes passages that are not intended to be absolute, and ignores the context of redemptive progression in favor of treating passages as timeless, eternal truth prooftexts (in cases when the author, especially the ultimate author, i.e., the Holy Spirit, has not intended them as such). I'm all for taking the Bible seriously, but in order to do so, we must pay attention to context all the more seriously, and thus, study hard to reach at the Spirit's authorial intention!

I realize this is a sweeping generalization, but generalization is what Matthew is asking for.

Brian
 
I'd also say practical piety has been a key note of the Reformed Faith. That is, living out doctrinal truths in every day life. Focus on holiness and sanctification, killing vice and quickening virtues. This is where the PB is weakest, myself included. I'm not commenting on the personal lives of our members (which I know nothing of) just reflecting on how quickly we are to exonerate practices our Reformed forefathers would have condemned. The present trend is to call everything "Christian liberty".

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Peter]
 
Originally posted by cultureshock
Originally posted by Peter
What's a "biblicist" and a "fundamentalist" approach? If that means someone who believes the bible and its fundamentals (in additiion to Reformed distinctives) count me in.

In my understanding, "biblicist" and "fundamentalist" refer to a very literalistic reading of Scripture, which I believe is more the result of Modern rationalism (like Descartes) than Reformed Christian presupposition. Such a reading often absolutizes passages that are not intended to be absolute, and ignores the context of redemptive progression in favor of treating passages as timeless, eternal truth prooftexts (in cases when the author, especially the ultimate author, i.e., the Holy Spirit, has not intended them as such). I'm all for taking the Bible seriously, but in order to do so, we must pay attention to context all the more seriously, and thus, study hard to reach at the Spirit's authorial intention!

I realize this is a sweeping generalization, but generalization is what Matthew is asking for.

Brian

I agree with you that this is bad but I dont think it is a problem here. I see the opposite problem of over mystifying everything the bible says much more of a problem in the Reformed churches.:2cents:
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by Puritanhead
It's too Presbyterian... otherwise no cause for complaint.
;)

Ryan,
Does that detract from the historic reformed framework, or is that just a personal complaint?

This is not an inquisition. But the statement has been made and needs to be either supported or recanted.

That was a joke... No, it doesn't detract from the historic reformed framework.

I think the Puritanboard is Reformed.

If you want me to be serious. I sometimes wonder whether the requirement that one affirm the WCF, 1689, or Three Forms of Unity is a bit too inclusive. There are people who put qualifiers on their affirmations (e.g. not sure about anti-papal affirmations in confession). There are people who are not quite there yet-- and have questions, but strong Reformed leanings. I sometimes wonder about that as a requirement... I have NOT lived under the banner of having the Puritanboard full of contentious Arminians and dispensationalists who like to argue with us, so I might chew my tongue if you had no confessional standard. I just don't know about it... perhaps it should be a flexible rule. Most Reformed newbies just don't know what it means. The PB is not a church as you guys point out, so I am not sure how rigorous one should be about confessions, but I realize no standards could be a problem as well.

I also hear more about Federal Vision / Auburn Avenue than I care too hear. I just stop visiting those threads. I think everyone knows they undercut covenant theology. Some able theologians may care to reform the unorthodoxed, but I just grow indifferent to trying to reform the unorthodox...

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Puritanhead]
 
Scott and Matthew,

:pilgrim: Puritanhead has his serious hat on now.

How about the moderators spearheading some threads that will might draw out and recover some Reformed distinctives and hallmarks of the faith? And we do this every so month with various spiritual mentors (e.g. pastors, deacons, etc.) taking helm in discussion. Sometimes, we lose sight of the Reformed distinctives. Like the Gospel which we are to preach it to ourselves continually, likewise we need refreshers on Reformed distinctives and the Reformation as well. We're still Reforming!

One of the great errors of Romanism and the medieval church was the sacred-secular dichotomy. Too often that mentality even creeps in among Protestants and evangelicals. I've felt in my life, and admit it as I wrestled with a perceived calling to pastoral ministry. It wrings out problems. As Boice and Ryken note in their book The Doctrines of Grace:
"The Roman Catholic Church had drawn an absolute distinction between the sacred and the secular: whatever religious leaders did was sacred; everything else was secular. Although, this distinction was rejected by Calvin (and by Luther, its overthrow was completed by the Puritans, who made secular work part of a person's sacred calling. Every job, no matter how mundane, was intrinsically important because it afforded the opportunity to glorify God and to love one's neighbor. Cotton Mather wrote, "Every Christian ordinarily should have a calling. That is to say, there should be some special business... wherein a Christian should for the most part spend the most of his time; and this, that so he may glorify God."

This is so true, and we can glorify God in whatever we do. We just need to set our sights on his promises, serve him in love, and heed his commandments. What we need is a passion for discipleship instilled among all believers.

I think we should also be more willing to constructively criticize our own forefathers and recognize the periodic errors of our forefathers. Being Reformed is not about following the Covenanters, Cromwell and Calvin down to every scintilla of dogma they espoused-- or defending everything they did and said. I am proud to have discovered an English Puritan and Scotch-Irish Covenanter and Welsh Presbyterian pedigree in family tree all the same.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by Puritanhead]
 
On the notes thus far, I'd like to see more threads on personal piety and some discussion on that note. (What to do, what we do, how we do it, what we can do to improve it, etc.)
 
Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Someone said just today, "This board" referring to the Puritanboard, "is not a good example of reformed theology."

What were the reasons given for this statement?


By the way, I haven't voted.

I don't really feel satisfied with the choices:

I think that this Board does accurately represent historic Reformed theology - at least, it is presented by several key folks.

However, on the con side, I think that many on this Board consistently represent very rigid interpretations of things like Sabbath observance, the RP, EP, women's roles, etc... Though the more... strict... interpretations have a legitimate place under the "Reformed umbrella," all too often proponents of these views use rhetoric that either explicitly or implicitly makes it clear that they think divergent views are not Reformed at all. This myopic understanding on the part of some is, in my opinion, why many could visit the Board and come away thinking that the Board is a bad example of Reformed theology.

Though, again, because several of the key posters consistently stress the core tenets of Reformed theology, I'd say that in that sense this Board does articulate it quite well.

[Edited on 2-6-2006 by SolaScriptura]
 
The very fact that there are differences of opinon here is a strength, not a weakness. Already a bunch of people who call themselves "reformed" can't be a part of the discussion--they aren't church members, they won't subscribe to a confession, etc. But hundreds can and do, and that from all across a spectrum of church affiliations, and exercising what to my mind is a fairly generous orthodoxy.

Scott,
I think calling people out or demanding that they put down a reason or an answer is counter-productive. Why should they? And your "list" of those who were online at the time is kind of gestapo, doncha think?

If there were never any disagreements or space to learn and grow, this would be a dull place, as well as not being a good example of Reformed theology.
 
I think the board is Reformed, according to the regular definition of the word in our context. Those who like to redefine words in recent days of theological reflection would probably not agree with our definition of "Reformed," but that doesn't matter, really. Disagreeing with something does not make it not so.
 
I really like this board because of the discussions and issues it wrestles with.

I think the breadth of discussion is really good already. It reflect folks' interests and "where they're at". While articles might be useful to bring back up Reformed distinctives, I'm not sure how well read they'll be as opposed to the threads that people jump into because of their specific interest in that information.

For instance, I've recently jumped into a couple of forums I haven't looked at since I joined the board and found folks that I have never seen in the Covenant and Theological forums where I spend a good portion of my time. I probably need to develop a taste for some other issues but I'd need to make an effort to look around places I don't normally visit to find some of those threads that will make me more broadly Reformed.

I also want to :ditto: Ben's comment above about some of the imperialism on this board. I understand some of the passion but it is frustrating sometimes that there are so many convictions in such diverse areas that the breadth and width of one's liberty, if taken all together, would be a dot.

That all said, I used to spend time in technology forums and grew increasingly weary of all the pagans with foolish ideas. They're especially overrun with teenage children. This place is a breath of fresh air and I have gotten some great insights into Scripture here and some resource recommendations from some Brothers here.

I must also add that I really enjoy the Baptists here. Pastor Way, Martin Marpelete, Mocha, Trevor Johnson, and others that I've run across (and run aground with on a couple of occassions) have sharpened my theology in a way it would not have if left unchallenged. I always enjoy the posts by Matt, Bruce, Scott, Fred, R. Scott Clark, Ben and others I agree with but its easy to enjoy stuff that resonates.

Thanks for this forum. If it's not perfectly Reformed then it reflects the fact that those who are posting are yet unperfected.
 
Ben, I don't see where holding to certain "strict" views anywhere near implies a contrary view is a deviation from Reformed theology or thinking. By the same means, as shown earlier in this thread, those that hold "loose" views can imply that those contrary to them are deviating from Reformed theology and thought. Personally, I don't like either term as generally both are holding strictly to one thing or another.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top