Is a card trick inappropriate to use as an illustration for teaching, not sermon?

[vkochetta]

In Sunday School and elsewhere I run across people who have a difficult time understanding/reconciling/accepting both the sovereignty of God and human responsibility/ free will.

I know all analogies break down at some point, but to illustrate that it is possible to make choices AND be controlled at the same time I am thinking of using a simple force to demonstrate it is possible even with a dumb card manipulation and how much more could God do the same in his infinite power.

I know that God's operation in creation is not illusion and we are not tricked into doing things... I'm just trying to get folks comfortable holding onto both concepts (Sovereignty/responsibility).

Would anything be wrong with doing this? Any cautions I need to be aware of?

Thanks for any input,

--- Vinny

 

[Jack K]

There's nothing wrong with using cards per se to illustrate a point. The issue is: does a "force" trick properly illustrate sovereignty and free will? In the trick, the guy with the cards manipulates his audience into making a choice they believe they made on their own. That manipulation is at the heart of the trick and can make the audience feel like they've been used. It may be similar in some ways to how God works, but the tone feels different. I think that if you use it you have to do so cautiously and with significant further explanation.

 

[jwithnell]

Hey there V, good to see you back on PB! It probably depends on the group -- college students would likely eat you for lunch on the points Jack raised. Older folks from way outside a reformed perspective will have too many disagreements with you to even get started explaining the point. Those in between might be willing to play along and realize the analogy can only be pushed so far. I don't think anyone can say it's wrong to use a card trick.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

If a card trick uses deception of perception then I would caution. I am not sure God uses deception of perception as a means. He uses truth and quickening of the Spirit. Just my thought off the top of my head.

 

[jwithnell]

OK, so Randy can say it's wrong to use a card trick

By the way, V, what Sunday School class are you teaching?

 

[GloriousBoaz]

This is actually a question I wanted to post because I was serious into prestidigitation a couple years back and was really pursuing it hard and wanted to do it for a profession, as well as using it for evangelism. I once did a full show at a women's/children's homeless shelter. My original reason for getting into it was Patch Adams and wanting to just put a smile on hurting people's faces, then I saw the potential for parable lessons. Ultimately I have stopped because of a few personal conscience issues like spending more time practicing than reading scripture and praying, so an golden cow issue. But my theological reasons for quitting (at least for the time being) is the potential (if not actual) occult ties, and the presence of deception, as well as that I don't think the church really needs anymore "entertainment factor" and i also never was settled with the "adding gimmicks to the gospel factor". For instance Sye Ten Bruggencate uses an analogy to illustrate why gimmicks aren't good when presenting the gospel, here it is: "If a doctor offers you a free TV you are very excited but what happens when you show up to his office to collect your prize and he tells you you have cancer?". I have lately been considering it again but not as a gimmick to draw people in to evangelize or to get them interested or even to speak to them on a "deeper level" because God's word will not return void, and you don't need to dress it up, it is scandalous for a reason. But more to use it in lines with the scripture "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied...Now if there is no resurrection...Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.(1 Cor. 15)" for those who I approach and they could care less about Christ to just say "well I'm sorry you don't care would you like to see a magic trick?" give them some joy since this life is the best they are gonna have, not disrespectfully but seriously empathetic and compassionate.

Sorry I really don't have any advice I'm actually looking for some. I know there is an entire society of Christian magicians and they stay away from mentalism and hypnosis and any other occultic practices and even lying by saying "It would appear the coin is in my hand" instead of lying and saying "the coin is in my hand" when trying to make the impression that a coin is in their hand when it isn't and that the word in the NT Greek for "magic" is more tied to occultic/spiritistic practices invoked through chemicals/drug/psycodelics finally they are very up front that nothing supernatural is going on and it is all skill based. But I'm still not 100% in my conscience and the theology behind it all so I have just dropped it and put it in God's hands until I either prove that it isn't my idol and/or until I get more counsel on it, which hopeful I can get here. Thanks this is very close to home for me.

 

[vkochetta]

I'm teaching a class on evangelism.... but some are getting tripped up over man's responsibility and God's sovereignty because they are thinking either/or not both/and.

I thought if I could show in one small way that it's possible to both make a choice and be controlled at the same time that it could get them over the hump.

All the mentioned warnings and cautions are good... God's not tricking us and we don't have apparent freedom....

This will only be a 2 minute "sidebar" so it won't be the main thrust of the class.

I appreciate folks' input

--- Vinny

 

[Peairtach]

Playing cards are strongly associated with gambling, which the Roman soldiers were engaged in while being spattered with the blood of God.

It might be better to use some other cards.

In teaching people theology it's best to avoid gimmicks. No human being undestands how God's sovereignty establishes Man's responsibility, because God's greatness and attributes do it. Can you understand omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence accomplishing this?

We receive it ny faith because the Bible teaches Man's responsibility and God's sovereignty, and denying either does not accord with reality when examined philosophically.

 

[MarieP]

First, I have no problem with card tricks in general, but...

I know that God's operation in creation is not illusion and we are not tricked into doing things

I think that's your answer right there...

I'm teaching a class on evangelism.... but some are getting tripped up over man's responsibility and God's sovereignty because they are thinking either/or not both/and.

One of the better illustrations I've heard is that of a pulley:

"I liken them to two ropes going through two holes in the ceiling and over a pulley above. If I wish to support myself by them, I must cling to them both. If I cling only to one and not the other, I go down. I read the many teachings of the Bible regarding God’s election, predestination, his chosen, and so on, I read also the many teachings regarding, ‘whosoever will may come’ and urging people to exercise their responsibility as human beings. These seeming contradictions cannot be reconciled by the puny human mind. With childlike faith, I cling to both ropes, fully confident that in eternity I will see that both strands of truth are, after all, of one piece”- R. B. Kuiper

Of course, this could break down as well because ultimately, the decree of God is not contingent on His creation (though there are many contingencies from our perspective.)