Theognome
Burrito Bill
Bill, you are indeed a poet.
But I din't rhyme nuthin! (that's 'But I did not rhyme anything' for those not in Mississippi)
Theognome
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Bill, you are indeed a poet.
I see your point, and this must be true with regard to our personal enemies. But what about imprecatory prayers concerning enemies of the church?
Good thing nobody prayed it down on Saul of Taursus I just don't think it would be appropriate. Don't want to start throwing around proof texts but , Vengence is Mine and bless those who persecute you comes to mind. It just seems to me that NT peoples are to pray in favor of enemies rather than for their demise.
Well, I agree, but I think the two are not mutually exclusive -- we pray that God would put an end to their rebellion, through either salvation or judgment.
How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.
I haven't read all the posts, but here is a resource which may be helpful:
Amazon.com: War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms: James E. Adams: Books
Chapter 5 of this book is online here:
May We Pray the Imprecatory Psalms? by James E. Adams
1 Timothy 2
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I am unconvinced that they are proper at the moment....
Christ's command for New Testament believers to pray for their enemies, bless those who persecute them, etc., is clearly to be understood as not praying for their destruction but for their benefit and that they may be converted; that is a much more likely and plausible interpretation of the text, and one that perhaps more people in the early church to whom the letter was written would have held this interpretation than not.
1 Timothy 2
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Here Paul tells Timothy that he is to pray for the people in high positions--those who at that time in history would be the ones persecuting them violently!!!--because it is pleasing to God and proper for living a godly life,and so they might come to a knowledge of the truth.
Sure I agree with all that. My original problem was with (I forget who) saying he could teach his children to pray along the lines of "Save him or damn him, so long as his evil and mistreatment of the church stops." That sort of prayer seems contrary to Jesus' teachings on prayer in the sermon on the mount. I have no problem with praying that God's enemies, those who hate him and seek to destroy his chosen people, be destroyed and have God's justice and wrath shown; I have a problem with praying that someone in specific be damned.
True but if a person is reprobate or elect is something perhaps altogether unknowable to any of us here today. It could be that I was really deceived by person X who lived what appeared to be a godly lifestyle but in fact was horrendously sinful and disbelieving and such. For this reason, I think it improper to pray for this person X to be destroyed as an enemy of God, because he could possibly by God's grace come to knowledge of the truth, like Paul for example.
I haven't read all the posts, but here is a resource which may be helpful:
Amazon.com: War Psalms of the Prince of Peace: Lessons from the Imprecatory Psalms: James E. Adams: Books
Chapter 5 of this book is online here:
May We Pray the Imprecatory Psalms? by James E. Adams
God is allowed to curse His enemies and even hate them because He is an all holy and righteous God who can do those things with perfect righteousness. We cannot. Therefore, He doesn't call us to pray a curse on others but instead love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Just because it's good enough for God to do something doesn't mean we are allowed to place ourselves in the same seat. God takes lives all the time, however, He has commanded that we not murder. We are not God...we must know our place and know His place and not confuse the two.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
I agree with imprecatory prayer being used against individuals. I think the scripture clearly shows that it should not be used for personal revenge, but rather a prayer that God uphold His people and His Word and bring judgment upon those who fight against Him for the purpose of repentence.
I see a close correlation between this and the purpose of church discipline.
I don't have a whole lot of scripture references to support this, as I haven't studied the topic specificially, however, I believe the psalms are a good example. David is not praying for personal revenge. He is praying that God would protect him against his enemies. I do think he is praying against individuals. An example would be the psalms where he is being persecuted by Saul. He may word the psalm to be nonspecific, but it is clear that it is against Saul.
God is allowed to curse His enemies and even hate them because He is an all holy and righteous God who can do those things with perfect righteousness. We cannot. Therefore, He doesn't call us to pray a curse on others but instead love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. Just because it's good enough for God to do something doesn't mean we are allowed to place ourselves in the same seat. God takes lives all the time, however, He has commanded that we not murder. We are not God...we must know our place and know His place and not confuse the two.
The imprecatory psalms were the words of David and obviously the words of God as well. But David was never corrected for saying these things. In fact he says in Psalm 139:21, "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?" By the wording of "do I not" it seems to imply this was what David was supposed to do. Obviously the other Scriptures about loving our enemies are true as well. There must be a balance that someone more intelligent than I am could maybe figure out. But we do find both in Scripture and there are no contradictions in Scripture.
how do impreccatory prayers square with matt5:44, "but i say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
Also, in the lord's prayer, we pray "deliver us from evil". We pray for god to deliver us from evil which i believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to him as to how he delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.
if matthew 5:44 denied the validity of imprecatory prayers, then it would make the prayers of david (like psalm 58) at odds with it. I'm not ready to accept such a proposition, as such prayers are ultimately seeking judgment. The judgment of the lord is definitely something that is neither abrogated nor passed away in Christ- rather, it is given even greater clarity through the nt... Cumulating in the second coming.
If i use a man-centered idea of what is love or good, i could not reconcile this. However, matthew does not state or even imply that imprecatory prayers are not appropriate, based on the standard of love and goodness that is the lord. Note how psalm 58 ends-
"(10)the righteous shall rejoice when he sees the veneance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, (11)so that men will say, 'surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely he is a god who judges in the earth.'"
the glorification of god before the world is the end desire of the prayer. The imprecatory prayer is guided by the love of god and his glory upon the earth. Also noteworthy is the declaration by the world (who are wicked) of the sovereignty of god. If i pray such a thing for the wicked- that god would break them to the core that they would turn to him, how does this defy the context of matthew 5:44?
It does not. What better blessing for a wicked man than to be brought to his knees before the lord? What greater love can we give to a pursuing infidel than to give him the gospel of our dear saviour, praying that he would bring them to repentance? Do we not see in the psalter that the thrust of the imprecatory prayer is that of breaking the pride of foolish men? Oh, that god would have heard such a prayer 'against' me when i was yet a youth, that i would not have spent half of my life hating him!
Therefore, as i see it, an imprecatory prayer, heartfelt, sincere and with passion... Imploring god that the wicked be broken by him, is one of the most important, deepest in meaning and unfortunately neglected supplications we can make before the throne of grace.
Theognome
How do impreccatory prayers square with Matt5:44, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."?
Also, in the Lord's Prayer, we pray "Deliver us from evil". We pray for God to deliver us from evil which I believe would include our enemies, but we leave it up to Him as to how He delivers us, whether he destroys them or converts them.
What about what Blueridge said,
"Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day"
Seems IMPRECATORISH to me...