How would you handle a gay brother-in-law?

[PuritanCovenanter]

(Pro 13:14) The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

(Pro 13:15) Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.

Just a place of fact. The way of transgressors is hard. They should expect harder times. And it is hard on them that love them.

 

[BJClark]

shackleton;

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

For me, I would hope I would handle it the same way I have with my grandfather who is a drunkard...if I am in their home then I am making the choice to be around his drunkeness...However, if he comes to my home or my siblings home's we ask that he not drink...needless to say we have not visited his home very often, as we prefer not to be around it..

However, in a situation like this it would be a little more difficult, as couples occassionally hold hands or show some signs of affection when at family functions...though if they are at your home you could certainly ask that they not show affection towards each other...and if they choose not to come back to your home then that is their choice..and one you must learn to accept..and if you desire to spend time with them, then you can do so at their home, knowing and accepting that it is their home, and you are freely choosing to spend time with them, knowing you disagree with their open sin..

or you could agree to meet in a public place where out of love and respect for you they might not flaunt their lifestyle by being openly affectionate towards each other, lest you also choose not to spend time with them at all.

 

[Josiah]

Did the prodigals father go into the pig pen to dine with him?

No, but a mutual relative's house full of family for whatever reason is not the same as going over to the gay "couple's" house to have dinner and play cards.

This may be true but the prodigal didn't bring the pig pen back to his house either. He didn't bring anyone else with him either. His Father didn't chase him into other countries either, but commended him to God. The father did go out to meet him when he returned. The father yearned and loved his child.

BTW, I have gone over to a gay couples homes for dinner and had gays over to my house for dinner. But it was also understood that it was because of our friendship and that the homosexual part of their lives where left to them and not something that was open nor entered in between us. If it did the repentance message would be something they would hear again. Mutual respect is something that should be expected. And someones deviant behavior can be put in check for the sake of friendship and family. BTW, most of the homosexuals I know acknowledge that there is sin and they are living in it. Some of them may believe they are born that away. I agree with them that they are born sinners prone to sin. And that I know that their kind of sin is a deep sin problem. But that doesn't negate the command to repent.

I don't think going to a room to avoid conversation does anything but show contempt. And someone who has grown up in the church and knows what God thinks might need to see God's contempt for their sin. I don't know. Each situation is so different. But the unrepentant also need to see that God will save them from their sin if peradventure he would grant them repentance. Sometimes this is shown by displays of kindness. Romans 2:4b comes to mind here, "...the goodness (kindness) of God leads to repentance."

An open invitation should always be left for those who will repent but a closed door to those who will not. Do you think the Father receives those who are unrepentant and know the truth? This is hard and gut wrenching since love is deep seated. This deep seated love explains the fathers exuberant joy when the repentant prodigal returns from his death.

This is a very complex issue and much prayer is needed. One thing to watch out for here is that a root of bitterness doesn't take root and overcome the grace of holiness and true love. God knows we are but men prone to wonder and sin.

I worked with a lady who was openly lesbian and she had professed to me that she knew that she had sin in her life.

 

[caddy]

No, but a mutual relative's house full of family for whatever reason is not the same as going over to the gay "couple's" house to have dinner and play cards.

This may be true but the prodigal didn't bring the pig pen back to his house either. He didn't bring anyone else with him either. His Father didn't chase him into other countries either, but commended him to God. The father did go out to meet him when he returned. The father yearned and loved his child.

BTW, I have gone over to a gay couples homes for dinner and had gays over to my house for dinner. But it was also understood that it was because of our friendship and that the homosexual part of their lives where left to them and not something that was open nor entered in between us. If it did the repentance message would be something they would hear again. Mutual respect is something that should be expected. And someones deviant behavior can be put in check for the sake of friendship and family. BTW, most of the homosexuals I know acknowledge that there is sin and they are living in it. Some of them may believe they are born that away. I agree with them that they are born sinners prone to sin. And that I know that their kind of sin is a deep sin problem. But that doesn't negate the command to repent.

I don't think going to a room to avoid conversation does anything but show contempt. And someone who has grown up in the church and knows what God thinks might need to see God's contempt for their sin. I don't know. Each situation is so different. But the unrepentant also need to see that God will save them from their sin if peradventure he would grant them repentance. Sometimes this is shown by displays of kindness. Romans 2:4b comes to mind here, "...the goodness (kindness) of God leads to repentance."

An open invitation should always be left for those who will repent but a closed door to those who will not. Do you think the Father receives those who are unrepentant and know the truth? This is hard and gut wrenching since love is deep seated. This deep seated love explains the fathers exuberant joy when the repentant prodigal returns from his death.

This is a very complex issue and much prayer is needed. One thing to watch out for here is that a root of bitterness doesn't take root and overcome the grace of holiness and true love. God knows we are but men prone to wonder and sin.

I worked with a lady who was openly lesbian and she had professed to me that she knew that she had sin in her life.

What it always boils down to is: we love our sin more than we love God. As Woody Allen stated in his incestious/adulterious affair and subsequent marriage to his adopted child: The heart wants what the heart wants.

God help us!

 

[Amazing Grace]

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


for you and yours

 

[caddy]

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


for you and yours

Think of with ALL the accessories and a pair of helium loafers...

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


for you and yours

Flamboyant and militant, stereotypical and a sissy drama queen.

 

[Amazing Grace]

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


for you and yours

Flamboyant and militant, stereotypical and a sissy drama queen.

Oh, so it has nothing to do with playing the piano?

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


for you and yours

Flamboyant and militant, stereotypical and a sissy drama queen.

Oh, so it has nothing to do with playing the piano?

Not unless you're Liberace.

 

[bookslover]

I think I should apologize to Shackleton for hijacking his thread. Sorry, Erick!

As for the advice I'm receiving from all of you, my thanks. I'm still pondering. My daughter met with an elder of our church (I'm surprised that she agreed to it). He asked her if she thought God could change her sexual orientation. She replied that she didn't want Him to do so. I heard this from him, not from her.

 

[Theoretical]

For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.

But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.

But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.

When a group such as homosexuals is so militant in their position you often do not desire to keep their company.

 

[calgal]

For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.

But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.

When a group such as homosexuals is so militant in their position you often do not desire to keep their company.

Not all homosexuals are militant.

 

[Theoretical]

For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.

But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.

When a group such as homosexuals is so militant in their position you often do not desire to keep their company.

Not all homosexuals are militant.

One does not have to aggressively assault homosexuality at every corner to be strongly opposed to it. While some will be militant no matter what, their militancy is just as noxious as the obnoxious militantly promiscuous heterosexual or the extravagant college partier. Most of the homosexuals I've interacted with at college, even some who were very militant with other people were people I could sit down and have a long, cordial conversation with over matters of the Christian religion and also why I believed that their particular action was inherently sinful. It is amazing how profoundly treating people as fellow bearers of the image of God who are just as much in need for Christ's salvation as you are, even though your sins may be less notorious, does for talking with them.

Besides, someone living openly in sin may be in a position to be more acutely aware of their need for Christ (even if they refuse to acknowledge it) than numerous cultural "Christians". After going through four years of college at a secular institution, I have more hope for salvation to come to the militant atheists, hard partiers, flamboyant homosexuals, and promiscuous heterosexuals than I do for many of the "Christians".

Now with all that said, I will make the boundaries exist in my home that I don't want to see homosexual couples engaging in romantic behavior any more than I want to some to come to my house drunk, randomly take and knock over paintings on the wall, insult my wife or kids, or engage in lewd heterosexual behavior. But that is a different situation where mutual respect is in order (i.e. that you should expect it when you go to their home)

 

[BJClark]

Not all homosexuals are militant.

While this is true, it also depends on the area of the country you live in..

In some areas it seems there are more of them that are militant than those who are not..

even here it also depends on what area of town you are in on whether or not you get
the more angry militant folks or not..I know if I go to certain areas of downtown, they
are very angry people, I won't go so far as to say it's because they are homosexual, but
they are just angry at the world and even being nice to them brings out more of the anger.

Many times I just want to ask, why are you so angry? Who are you angry at?
But most of those who carry all that anger don't let anyone close enough to ask.

Bookslover,

Did the elder ask your daughter why she doesn't want God to change her?
What is she afraid of happening to her life if He does?

Is she afraid God won't really forgive her?

Is she afraid she will still struggle and it will just be to difficult?

Is she afraid to admit she is wrong and that she's spent all these years living in sin, and it's a pride issue?

Or maybe as her dad you could sit and talk with her about these things??

 

[caddy]

Not all homosexuals are militant.

While this is true, it also depends on the area of the country you live in..

In some areas it seems there are more of them that are militant than those who are not..

even here it also depends on what area of town you are in on whether or not you get
the more angry militant folks or not..I know if I go to certain areas of downtown, they
are very angry people, I won't go so far as to say it's because they are homosexual, but
they are just angry at the world and even trying to be nice to them brings out more of the anger.

Many times I just want to ask, why are you so angry? Who are you angry at?
But most of those who carry all that anger don't let anyone close enough to ask.

Bookslover,

Did the elder ask your daughter why she doesn't want God to change her?
What is she afraid of happening to her life if He does?

Is she afraid God won't really forgive her?

Is she afraid she will still struggle and it will just be to difficult?

Is she afraid to admit she is wrong and that she's spent all these years living in sin, and it's a pride issue?

Or maybe as her dad you could sit and talk with her about these things??

These are good points and questions above.


Probe has some good stuff:

Probe Ministries - My Son Came Out As Gay

Probe Ministries - Probe Answers E-Mail

 

[shackleton]

I think I should apologize to Shackleton for hijacking his thread. Sorry, Erick!QUOTE]

No problem. I am finding out what I wanted to know through this dialogue. I am glad you are getting help.

In my line of work, EMS, there are an inordinate number of homosexuals. I think they are drawn to the helping aspect of it. They think somehow if they help someone else it will help them somehow. Most of them come from homes where there were a lot of problems and their homosexuality is just another way of dealing with these problems. They are looking for love, usually a fathers love, and seek to find it in the arms of another man.
This does not include the ones who have become so sexually perverted that this is just the next step on their spiral downward. I think these are the ones Paul is talking about in Romans. These are the ones who are usually militant.

 

[Amazing Grace]

The homosexuality issue literally "hits home" for many. I have yet to be burdened by this cross, so I do not think I can give any personal advice. One thing that plagues this issue is it is easy to define the one sin of homosexuality and know you have not commited it. This makes certain anti gay people puff up their chest and bash the other. Tolerance does not equal approval of lifestyle. Yet we are commanded to love. I believe chirst died for the sin of homosexuality, unless we equate this with the unforgivable sin. Therefore restoration and repentance is the goal. As far as not associating with them, I disagree. How many "professing believers" do not wear their sins on their heads? Homosexuality has the mark of Cain where all can see.(Those who come out). Where as how many 'professing believers" keep their secret sins in the closet?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Ok here's what I've been holding in and I'm sorry if it offends anyone.

I keep hearing (amongst many Christians) and reading in this thread as well, how "homosexuality" is no more "wrong than any other sin. It's been compared to drunkenness, and other such sins. Ok, I can accept that..generally.

That said, I'd ask..so what? Too many Christians have been made to feel badly by the radical nut jobs amongst us who use physical violence, sometimes even murder towards those practicing certain sins like homosexuality, abortion, etc. We want to prove that we're "not like them", and that we "love the sinner!" Again, that's great, but I think we go too far in order to "prove" that.

I can't help but continually look at the story of the prodigal. I do this often as my daughter rebelliously lives in sin. It's not homosexuality (so far as I know) but it's many other things..too many and depressing to name.

I keep reading the word "shun" here and it's beginning to annoy me. It's not "shunning" when you refuse to accept someone's sickeningly sinful life style. It's not shunning when you display your beliefs by frequently talking about them, praying before meals (in a fervent way), and speaking to those you love about the gospel and Jesus Christ. I don't think we "turn it down" around those who are offended by us and what we think and believe.

I've visited my daughters living places many times, and I've had her at mine. I did not do either to use them to preach to her, but neither did I act unlike myself in order to not offend her. I prayed when I normally pray, and I spoke of the word of God as I normally do, which is often. When others ask me for my opinion or advice, or tell me of troubling situations they are in, or that a friend is in, when they speak of something "fun" they've done that I actually find wicked, I am going (and always have done so) to share (meekly and gentle) what the Lord has to say about those situations. How can I not? How can you not?

From my experience, once this happens, the lost person rolls their eyes, sighs, or looks like they swallowed raw sewage. Now, I don't "turn it up a notch" at that point. I don't seek to "pound them over the head" with it. As I said, I'm simply not going to act and talk like a non-Christian in the company of pagans. If they are uncomfortable with that..GOOD! Before you "plant a seed" it may take some plowing and fertilizing of the ground.

All of that said, I don't believe we "shun" people. I also don't believe we change who we are and cater to each and every lost person in a certain manner to best "win them over". that's too much like the goofy "seeker sensitive" Church. Just by my very presence I can annoy my daughter. She's on edge around me knowing that God is going to be in my speech at some point, most likely early and often. Her friends see me as the "Jesus freak" (their words) and it embarrasses her. If she caught in a bad position in life, she cannot bring her self to call me because she knows I'll witness to her and pray. If I did not do those things I would be closer to my daughter. If I did not boldly profess Christ and call her to repentance, we might still hang out together and go for rides in my sport car as we did when she was a teenager. If I tolerated her drunken friends and their whoring relationships I might be seen as the "cool dad" like so many of her friends parents are. If I supported her divorce, made her car payments when her money went to her booze instead of her bills, and kept my mouth shut about casual sexual relationships maybe she would just one day see my good attitude and repent. No, she wouldn't. I tried that garbage in my Arminian days. It doesn't work. One can't accept and turn to that which they've never or seldom heard. When you "show" someone Christ's love, they've got to eventually hear His commands as well. Everyone like the love part, few want anything to do with His commands.

To finish- in regard to the gay brother-in-law:

Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?

I'd have a problem with this for many reasons. It's a horrible witness to anyone else, especially children as Randy mentioned. I work with 13 teenage girls and I have them to consider. Even though they know of and maybe even have seen homosexual couples many times, I wouldn't want them to have to keep company with them in my home. We can talk about them not being militant and flaming all day long, but they are a couple and they will do what couples do, sit how couples sit, affectionately display that which couples display. I've already told my daughter that if she were ever gay, I would love her the same as ever but her and her "lover" would never be allowed in my home together. Someone said in this thread that if their drunken relative comes to their home they simply cannot drink. That's GREAT! So you wouldn't allow him to enter your home carrying a six back of Beer right? Well then, that's what the gay person is doing when they tote along their "lover", they are the drunkard bringing along a case of alcohol. Maybe if the drunk hid his beer under his shirt? Or drank it when no one was looking? Maybe he's a "quiet drunk" and no one will know? I mean we don't want to hit him over the head with our beliefs! Are we not to show Christ's love?

Maybe Jesus should have went a little easier on those money changers in the temple? I mean it's likely they never went back to Church!

Sorry to come on so strong, but it's who I am. If I've offended anyone here I guess you can relate to my daughter. I pray that I have not though. I pray even more for the lost people spoken of in this thread and all involved with them. I stand out on the path way seeking my daughter's return from the pig pen. I pray for it all day, every day, but I will not go rescue her from it, she must stop, turn around, and come home. Then we'll celebrate like never before! This is the example Christ gave me on how to deal with a loved one who has rebelled and went her own way. It's HARD, very hard, but isn't there something in the word of God about the path being narrow?

 

[LadyFlynt]

Adam, you and others keep missing the difference between having them in YOUR home and having to simply deal with their presence at family functions (ie., presuming someone else's home, a funeral parlour, a wedding, etc.). I don't believe anyone disagrees that you should pray when you normally pray and be honest with them when certain issues come up. The issue is, you and certain others keep bringing up YOUR home...that is fine to set your own rules, I encourage it! My issue is when people allow such in their home, but go hide in a corner instead of either laying down the rules or acting like an adult should they have to be in the presence of the other. Also for those people that wish to create a family scene in "if you invite so and so, we won't be there". THAT is what I was warning against. Not insisting people be all gushy and feel good with them. But you can at least treat them as a human being and act like an adult.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Well, if I wouldn't have them in my home, why would I go to another family members home if they were going to be there? I wouldn't be mad at you for having them, but I'd ask you not to be mad at me for not bringing my family to a place where they would be. I would hope you could/would understand that. I wouldn't try and black mail you with my attendance or non-attendance based on your decision however.

Now, keeping it personal, if you invited my daughter to a family function I would of course still come! However, I would be myself at this function and if that insulted her, too bad. I am not saying you feel this way Colleen, but I fear too many Christians feel that "being an adult" means trying not to make the non-Christian feel bad with what they say. I won't "target" someone who rejects Christ as if they were a pariah, but I won't tip-toe around them either.

Finally, homosexuality is different than other sins in so many ways, at least to me. My daughter can be somewhere without anyone knowing her private actions and practices. If this is the case with a homosexual, then I'd be fine at a public function with them. I just don't think it's possible for that to be the case unless they are without their "lover". Even at funerals and such I may hold my wifes hand, or put my arm around her back or shoulder for a few moments. I don't desire to be anywhere that people of the same sex are acting in this manner. It would be the same thing as my daughter binge drinking or dancing provocatively on a table at the same public place-unacceptable.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Sorry, Adam...I have 2 relatives that are practicing homosexuals and a friend whose brother is. I did not avoid her wedding because her brother was there and both he took an active role in the wedding. I did not feel it appropriate to take out my dismay on her and her wedding. I have never had any homosexual public display their affections before others beyond their partner simply being present...no hand holding, no kissing...nothing beyond them being there in the background and occasionally being conversational with those that initiate conversation with them first. This is quite different than I have experience with people that have live in girlfriends climbing all over their lap and trying to neck at family functions or the uncle that brings his 6th wife after the last 3 lasted less than 6mos.

This is why I felt it was hypocritical to say, "I'll attend a family event where someone with this morbid sin, but not a homosexual". I honestly don't see a difference. Either one can behave appropriately (keeping their sin to themselves) or behave inappropriately (putting their sin on public display).

 

[ReformedWretch]

Either one can behave appropriately (keeping their sin to themselves) or behave inappropriately (putting their sin on public display).

I agree, I suppose I just see the later far, far more.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Fornication is bad and I don't condone it either. Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication. A guy kissing a girl erotically is not on the same level as a guy erotically kissing a guy or a woman kissing another woman erotically. (or holding hands if you please)

(Jer 8:12) Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

Let us not become a people who will not blush or be ashamed of gross sin.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication.

Would someone, anyone, please show me this from scripture??? I have only heard of "Levels of Sin" from those that are highly Arminian (not implying that anyone here is Arminian).

James 2:9-13 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Bookslover,

I've been informed that I don't understand your whole situation (true, I can only go by what you have chosen to share). Apparently there was misunderstanding in one post I made. My attempt was not to name call. I used the term "like a..." to show how I believe such action would be taken by your daughter, just in having dealt with this in our own family.

(Correction: I was just informed that the mercy part was in permitting your daughter and her partner over to your home. This clarification helps immensely in trying to understand. In our situation the person was permitted, but not their partner. Thus, it helps in understanding why you separated yourself. However, since this came from a third party, there still might be misunderstanding and I would appreciate your explanation on this. I'm only seeing how it could be taken by your daughter, but you know her better in your situation).

 

[fredtgreco]

Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication.

Would someone, anyone, please show me this from scripture??? I have only heard of "Levels of Sin" from those that are highly Arminian (not implying that anyone here is Arminian).

It certainly is evidence of reprobation, although not an unforgiveable sin. Not Paul's argument in Romans 1:

He begins by describing the rejection of God and embrace of idolatry:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Then note his connection:

26 For this reason...

And then see what gives as evidence of those who have rejected Him:

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Notice that Paul moves in a direct line from idolatry/rejection of God (a perversion of reality) --> manifestation in homosexual acts (a perversion of God's created order).

Notice also that it does not say that homosexuality itself per se is reprobation or damnable; rather it is evidence of the same, which should move us to even swifter repentance.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication.

Would someone, anyone, please show me this from scripture??? I have only heard of "Levels of Sin" from those that are highly Arminian (not implying that anyone here is Arminian).

It certainly is evidence of reprobation, although not an unforgiveable sin. Not Paul's argument in Romans 1:

He begins by describing the rejection of God and embrace of idolatry:



Then note his connection:

26 For this reason...

And then see what gives as evidence of those who have rejected Him:

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Notice that Paul moves in a direct line from idolatry/rejection of God (a perversion of reality) --> manifestation in homosexual acts (a perversion of God's created order).

Notice also that it does not say that homosexuality itself per se is reprobation or damnable; rather it is evidence of the same, which should move us to even swifter repentance.

Thank you, Fred...because my husband was wondering also. I'll discuss it with him. Does this mean we should treat it differently than that of fornicators? And is there a difference if they are hiding their sin, but we know of it vs if others know of it?

 

[Matthias]

I feel that, if I do what my wife does, and just sit around having normal conversations with daughter and partner, then they have "won" the battle against me, that they will have bent me to their will.

I figure I've taken the high ground here (I don't recall the apostle Paul sitting around being pals with gay people). But, as I've said, I'm being made to feel like I'm the bad guy here.

Am I wrong? Am I right?

I agree with your position and with the way you are handling this situation

Its not easy.... but Biblical

 

[Amazing Grace]

Here is a stupid question.

Is same sex preferance a sin without acting on it?

I know it has been asked probably 1000 times, just wondering what ye all think?

Is a non practicing homosexual showing evidence od a reprobate mind as Fred explained

 

[ReformedWretch]

...good question! I have a thought but want Fred or someone more qualified than I to answer first.