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Originally posted by cultureshock
Perimeter. The confessions aren't exhaustive statements on everything, nor were they meant to be.
For example: postmil or amil? I would argue that both are allowed by the WCF.
Brian
[Edited on 2-6-2006 by cultureshock]
Originally posted by puritansailor
I would say they are a perimeter and guide but they aren't exhaustive. They must also be considered with the author's intent. We should not be allowed to pour our own meaning into their words or try to make allowances for deviant views where they made none (i.e. non--literal creation days, etc.). If you wish to change what the church allows or beleives, then seek to amend the Confessions, not redefine the words.
Originally posted by puritansailor
I would say they are a perimeter and guide but they aren't exhaustive. They must also be considered with the author's intent. We should not be allowed to pour our own meaning into their words or try to make allowances for deviant views where they made none (i.e. non--literal creation days, etc.). If you wish to change what the church allows or beleives, then seek to amend the Confessions, not redefine the words.
I'm not entirely happy with these two ideas set in opposition to one another. The "tightrope" selection seems to suggest strict subscription, and "perimeter" loose subscription. But, is that what you mean to communicate in your options?* The confessions are tightrope, one slip of the foot and you're a goner.
* The confessions are a perimeter, there's latitude within the frame.
but go on to add a thing or two. Yes, it is true that the Confessions are not exhaustive, in the context of containing all doctrine possible. But it is exhaustive concerning all that the Church has approved for teaching as having full Biblical authority. That does not mean that everything has been revealed to us yet. History will show whether the Church is granted the guidance of the Holy Spirit against errors dominating Christ's church.Confessions of faith are an elaboration and public confession of what a church believes the Scriptures teach. If a church doesn't believe something they should not have it in their confession.
Originally posted by wsw201
In addition,
does the Church have the right or authority to stipulate the meaning of the confession outside of amending it? For instance, the issue of creation. Both the OPC and PCA allow latitude in this area. Also concerning the Psalms. Both the OPC and PCA allow for hymns in their respective Directories of Worship and these directories are to be in accord with the Standards.
Originally posted by wsw201
In addition,
does the Church have the right or authority to stipulate the meaning of the confession outside of amending it? For instance, the issue of creation. Both the OPC and PCA allow latitude in this area. Also concerning the Psalms. Both the OPC and PCA allow for hymns in their respective Directories of Worship and these directories are to be in accord with the Standards.
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Patrick,
I agree that is the way things should be (I mean the amendment process); but what do you do in a church that has inherited a long standing understanding, or misunderstanding, at odds with the original intent of the Westminster Assembly? I mean that has simply "happened" without any amendment process. You may have literally had generations vowing to upholding somethng that was not intended by the authors.
Patrick, do you see any issues besides (perhaps) the singing of ssalms and six-day creation being "reinterpreted"?Originally posted by puritansailor
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Patrick,
I agree that is the way things should be (I mean the amendment process); but what do you do in a church that has inherited a long standing understanding, or misunderstanding, at odds with the original intent of the Westminster Assembly? I mean that has simply "happened" without any amendment process. You may have literally had generations vowing to upholding somethng that was not intended by the authors.
The easy answer is to discard the faulty tradition and return to the position of actually believing and meaning what we say. But that would require some amendments wouldn't it? I don't know why Presbyterians are so averse to this today, but amending is better than redefining. At least then everyone knows where you stand and there is no ambiguity or suspicion on the part of outsiders who may question the doctrinal faithfulness of those in your ranks.
That is another beneficial thing about all these Puritans and Westminster Divines being reprinted today. There is very little left to question as to what the author's intent was. It sounds like a divinely providential remedy to all these attacks upon our confessional language and what it "allows".
Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian
Patrick, do you see any issues besides (perhaps) the singing of ssalms and six-day creation being "reinterpreted"?
Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian
I'm not entirely happy with these two ideas set in opposition to one another. The "tightrope" selection seems to suggest strict subscription, and "perimeter" loose subscription. But, is that what you mean to communicate in your options?
If one "slips" on points of the Confession, it does not necessarily mean they've "slipped" into Hell. It means they are denied ecclesiastical fellowship. But the "perimeter" idea seems to suggest that contained in the Confession is someone of a "system" that can be pulled out of it and agreed to, without agreeing to particulars. If that's what you mean, I think that's wrong--in actuallity, Scripture contains a "system" (so to say) and we have summarized that system in the Confession. In other words, there is no system in the Confession to be taken out and agreed with, but in fact, the Confession is the system.
So, if you mean by the "tightrope" option a strict subscription and the Confession setting the bounds for ecclesiastical fellowship, then I'll vote "tightrope." Honestly, I think a "line in the sand" option would be a better way to describe strict subscription instead of "tightrope."
Well, it's not that I disagree with you--but the OPC has long held (correct me if I'm wrong) the practice of strict subscription. I do believe that this issue, to some degree, is the cause of our continued separation from our PCA brethren.Originally posted by puritansailor
Originally posted by StaunchPresbyterian
Patrick, do you see any issues besides (perhaps) the singing of ssalms and six-day creation being "reinterpreted"?
I was just using them as examples. I know the Confession is not exhaustive on everything, but I do believe that what it does speak on, it speaks on rather clearly, providing us a rather solid fence. But I am concerned with the trend at seeing "what fits with the language" of the Confession rather than "what the Confession says." To me that is just a hole in the dike, and it will lead us down the same road following the PCUSA. It's becoming more of an issue in the PCA because of the Federal Vision stuff and their looser views on subscription, but the OPC will probably follow suit as well if they don't get these issues on justification figured out. Sabbath issues probably would fit that as well, but usually elders state their exception there because they acknowledge what the Confession teaches. I know I'm just an ignorant seminary student who has much to learn but this stuff troubles me. What good is a confession of faith when it's not your confession?
Originally posted by puritansailor
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Patrick,
I agree that is the way things should be (I mean the amendment process); but what do you do in a church that has inherited a long standing understanding, or misunderstanding, at odds with the original intent of the Westminster Assembly? I mean that has simply "happened" without any amendment process. You may have literally had generations vowing to upholding somethng that was not intended by the authors.
The easy answer is to discard the faulty tradition and return to the position of actually believing and meaning what we say. But that would require some amendments wouldn't it? I don't know why Presbyterians are so averse to this today, but amending is better than redefining. At least then everyone knows where you stand and there is no ambiguity or suspicion on the part of outsiders who may question the doctrinal faithfulness of those in your ranks.
That is another beneficial thing about all these Puritans and Westminster Divines being reprinted today. There is very little left to question as to what the author's intent was. It sounds like a divinely providential remedy to all these attacks upon our confessional language and what it "allows".
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Sure; easy to say. I'm not really arguing with you on anything as I agree with the ideal and am in favor of strict subscription to Confessions of Faith. My suspicion is the reason that admendments are not made is that it is hard work and that many are not in a context that favors strict subscription so what does it really matter?....
Originally posted by puritansailor
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Patrick,
I agree that is the way things should be (I mean the amendment process); but what do you do in a church that has inherited a long standing understanding, or misunderstanding, at odds with the original intent of the Westminster Assembly? I mean that has simply "happened" without any amendment process. You may have literally had generations vowing to upholding somethng that was not intended by the authors.
The easy answer is to discard the faulty tradition and return to the position of actually believing and meaning what we say. But that would require some amendments wouldn't it? I don't know why Presbyterians are so averse to this today, but amending is better than redefining. At least then everyone knows where you stand and there is no ambiguity or suspicion on the part of outsiders who may question the doctrinal faithfulness of those in your ranks.
That is another beneficial thing about all these Puritans and Westminster Divines being reprinted today. There is very little left to question as to what the author's intent was. It sounds like a divinely providential remedy to all these attacks upon our confessional language and what it "allows".
Originally posted by wsw201
Hence, an appeal to an unspecified and unspecifiable animus imponentis (especially when combined with a discounting on original intent) makes the Confession into a wax nose to be molded by a fifty percent plus one majority of the court under the control of the spirit of the age. Bad idea. It opens up a Pandora's box of problems, and though it may seem to help in the relatively minor matter of the creation days, it hurts in precisely the areas of Dr. Fesko's own illustrations.