Have you ever encountered the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement?

[Zork]

View attachment 2662

Have you ever had an Experience in a Charismatic/Pentecostal movement?
Why do you think this movement is growing so fast?
How would you attempt to convert a Charismatic/Pentecostal?(I'm dealing with this a lot so advice will be appreciated)

They will never change because you point out that "tongues", "divine healing" or "slain in the spirit is wrong" is wrong.(Don't even mention TULIP)
If you can point out errors even they can't ignore what will it be?(Doctrinal etc.)

 

[J. Dean]

Got two hours?

I spent from 1990 to 1997 involved in the Pentecostal movement. Did it for the wrong reason, too; it was because the music was more "hip."

Started listening to R.C. Sproul about 1996-1997, initially had shouting matches with him about the sovereignty of God (Did you know that you can't shout down a pre-recorded radio show?). But upon revisiting passages like Romans 9, it started changing things.

Along with that, as I mentioned earlier, I started having questions about the pentecostal movement, questions that were not being answered by the parishoners or ministers with satisfaction. Like, why is everybody blurting out tongues when the Bible says that tongues are to be spoken by two or three at the most, and are to be interpreted? I also started thinking there was something wrong with me because I didn't want to run down the aisle to the altar blubbering and shaking like some other people were. Or because I wasn't getting all of these "revelations" about my life like others were. Or that the "second work of grace" seemed to come and go with my feelings.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

There are good, godly Christians in the pentecostal movement, people who truly believe in salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. But the movement's secondary errors as a whole are substantial enough at times to affect primary matters, and they don't line up with the Scriptures more often than they sometimes care to admit.

 

[Leslie]

I don't understand why someone can't be both charismatic and Calvinist at the same time. There is a large movement like that in the UK. I was charismatic, but it has fallen by the wayside, largely for cultural reasons. It seems to me much more appropriate to bring atheists and agnostics to faith. Let the charismatics be. It'll all be sorted out in the end.

 

[J. Dean]

I don't understand why someone can't be both charismatic and Calvinist at the same time. There is a large movement like that in the UK. I was charismatic, but it has fallen by the wayside, largely for cultural reasons. It seems to me much more appropriate to bring atheists and agnostics to faith. Let the charismatics be. It'll all be sorted out in the end.

The big issues I have with charismaticism are these:
1.) an unscriptural approach to speaking in tongues, both in prinicple and in practice
2.) an unscriptural approach to sanctification (many charismatics believe in the "second work of grace/entire sanctification" movement)
3.) An overdependence on visible "signs and wonders" and emotionalism
4.) A belief (not always but often) that not using contemporary music is equal to "dead worship"
5.) An abusive stance on the normative principle of worship, via "anything goes" in the service, including drama, videos, etc.,
6.) A strong flirtation with semi-pelagianism, at times spilling over into Finneyism

That's for starters. And mind you, I was involved in the movement for some time, so I know of what I speak.

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

This may be of some interest on the "charismatic calvinist" issue: Sola Sisters: John Piper, A "Charismatic Calvinist?"

 

[Zork]

This may be of some interest on the "charismatic calvinist" issue: Sola Sisters: John Piper, A "Charismatic Calvinist?"

I saw this on youtube the other day. He is a good teachers, can He be trusted with His other views?
He think that when the bible speaks about "When the Perfect comes" is the second Coming.
Gifts ceased when the Canon of Scripture was closed. Right? No one left to authenticate. Not Necessary because we have 66 books, pertaining to every part of life.
It goes on to say Faith and hope will also go away. That is the second coming.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jwright82]

I was raised in a Charismatic church and am proud to say that I no longer hold any of these views. I still have to deal with family members who hold these views.

 

[Somerset]

I haven't come across any charismatic Calvinist group in my part of the UK.

 

[Mathetes]

Even Roman Catholics can be charismatics, I know because I was one waaayyy back in the day.

Anyways, Zork, I highly recommend reading John MacArthur's "Charismatic Chaos"...I just finished it, and it's very well researched. He goes through all the necessary points of the charismatic/pentecostal movement, such as tongues, health & wealth, healings, etc., and then rebuts them all with the sobering light of Scripture. Phil Johnson's blog also tackles the subject now and then. He seems to be a capital "C" cessationist, but I have to admit that I don't think I have too much of a problem with semi-cessationism - that is, that God does not as a rule work the miraculous in the church age, but I don't see why He couldn't do discreet miracles at times.

 

[Quatchu]

My wife grew up in Charismatic Churches. Her mother is way off the deep end about converting her whole family (All of her kids surprising are all professing Christians just not Charismatic.) that they must speak in tongues to be saved. Also huge into prophecy she has been faithfully proclaiming every year for the last 50 years that this is the year the Lord will rapture the church.
My wife has told me she felt great pressure from her mother to speak in tongues to the point my wife often considered fakeing it just to make her mother happy. My Mother in Laws new hangup is that apparently God is calling her to ride a train to the next town.

One thing about her is that her constant craziness is really what made me look more into the Reformed Tradition.

 

[Tim]

Ronny, what is your cultural context in South Africa? I used to live in your country and the context may be relevant to the discussion.

 

[Zork]

Ronny, what is your cultural context in South Africa? I used to live in your country and the context may be relevant to the discussion.

Cultural context?

 

[J. Dean]

I haven't come across any charismatic Calvinist group in my part of the UK.

You're not missing anything The most charismatic group you should meet is a group of rugby fans!

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

This may be of some interest on the "charismatic calvinist" issue: Sola Sisters: John Piper, A "Charismatic Calvinist?"

I saw this on youtube the other day. He is a good teachers, can He be trusted with His other views?
He think that when the bible speaks about "When the Perfect comes" is the second Coming.
Gifts ceased when the Canon of Scripture was closed. Right? No one left to authenticate. Not Necessary because we have 66 books, pertaining to every part of life.
It goes on to say Faith and hope will also go away. That is the second coming.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Piper overall is a VERY good teacher. I have a couple of concerns that he goes too far with his teachings on Christians and money, but beyond that he's definitely worth checking out. His booklet "Counted Righteous in Christ" is fantastic, and deals with N.T. Wright's erroneous view of justification in a very good way.

Now I hope this doesn't get off topic, but it would seem odd for the "that" in verse 10 of I Cor. 13 to be referring to the Second Coming, because it seems a little odd for Paul to refer to Jesus Christ with an impersonal demonstrative pronoun designated for inanimate objects.

 

[Zork]

I haven't come across any charismatic Calvinist group in my part of the UK.

You're not missing anything The most charismatic group you should meet is a group of rugby fans!

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

This may be of some interest on the "charismatic calvinist" issue: Sola Sisters: John Piper, A "Charismatic Calvinist?"

I saw this on youtube the other day. He is a good teachers, can He be trusted with His other views?
He think that when the bible speaks about "When the Perfect comes" is the second Coming.
Gifts ceased when the Canon of Scripture was closed. Right? No one left to authenticate. Not Necessary because we have 66 books, pertaining to every part of life.
It goes on to say Faith and hope will also go away. That is the second coming.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Piper overall is a VERY good teacher. I have a couple of concerns that he goes too far with his teachings on Christians and money, but beyond that he's definitely worth checking out. His booklet "Counted Righteous in Christ" is fantastic, and deals with N.T. Wright's erroneous view of justification in a very good way.

Now I hope this doesn't get off topic, but it would seem odd for the "that" in verse 10 of I Cor. 13 to be referring to the Second Coming, because it seems a little odd for Paul to refer to Jesus Christ with an impersonal demonstrative pronoun designated for inanimate objects.

I Agree, How can a Highly trained Theologian believe that the gifts haven't ceased. He says you must use them but in small groups.???
Small groups? Prophecy? Tongues? Revelation? Healing(Gift)?
How does he interpret the bible then? Hermeneutics? What about the exegetical studies?
I truly don't understand!!!!

 

[Tim]

Ronny, what is your cultural context in South Africa? I used to live in your country and the context may be relevant to the discussion.

Cultural context?

Yes. Cultural context.

The allure of healing and prosperity is big in Africa, especially among the disadvantaged groups. Since you mention that you are dealing with charismatic/pentecostal people a lot, it is likely that the culture in which they live contributes to a greater desire for there to be signs and wonders that in fact have ceased. Knowing the struggles that such people face would be important if you are to encourage people to think biblically on this matter.

 

[FenderPriest]

I Agree, How can a Highly trained Theologian believe that the gifts haven't ceased. He says you must use them but in small groups.???
Small groups? Prophecy? Tongues? Revelation? Healing(Gift)?
How does he interpret the bible then? Hermeneutics? What about the exegetical studies?
I truly don't understand!!!!

Is this a question to understand your brother's position, or to rant? I don't ask to provoke a fight, but it seems that there's some serious categorical uncharitableness going on here.

 

[Zork]

Ronny, what is your cultural context in South Africa? I used to live in your country and the context may be relevant to the discussion.

Cultural context?

Yes. Cultural context.

The allure of healing and prosperity is big in Africa, especially among the disadvantaged groups. Since you mention that you are dealing with charismatic/pentecostal people a lot, it is likely that the culture in which they live contributes to a greater desire for there to be signs and wonders that in fact have ceased. Knowing the struggles that such people face would be important if you are to encourage people to think biblically on this matter.

ooooo, Thought you wanted to know if im male or female. ROFL. Just Kidding.

1. The Experiential "feel close to god"(Supernatural) gospel is striving. You see pastors in South Africa are lazy to study the word.(They copy paste other false teachers and preach stuff they didn't compile.)

2. We have big rich churches full of unsaved people(Prosperity gospel)

3. Woman pastors are flourishing(scary what they do), much like Benny Hinn

4. No bible interpretation being used whatsoever.(Hermon WHO?)

5. Never the mention of SIN or REPENTANCE.

6. Very aggressive when you want to HELP them.

7. Pride plays a huge role in this 7.1 If pastor changes he loses his rich lifestyle 7.2 If he changes he loses the trust of his people.

8. TBN and GOD channels full of "wolves"(teachers) that they compare themselves to.(Todd Bentley, Hinn, P.White, TD Jakes, Dollar, Copeland, J.Osteen etc.)

9. Scariest thing I have encountered was the manipulation(Planting fear in people), saying things like you are stealing from "god"(Different god) if you don't thigh 10% or more.
or saying you are blaspheming the holy spirit if you speak against tongues etc.

They use verses out of context to prove their points.
The fear of GOD has vanished, Self is the god now.

O, How I pray God will open their eyes and save them.
How I pray GOD will save them from all these deceptions.
Lord Jesus Help us to help them.
O Lord break us, break our prideful hearts. Grant us true repentance.
Lord help us to understand that your WORD is the ULTIMATE authority. Not experience.
Amen.

 

[Tim]

Yes, that was what I was getting at. Some of the things you mentioned are particularly bad in South Africa, but still exist in North America too.

 

[Rufus]

Kinda. Spent a year and a half or so in a mildly charismatic church, only hard speaking in tongues once and it was when the Pastor was away. Apparently before I went there the church was very big on these things but it has since dropped watered down their views. I would say there is a large swath of types of Charismatics and Pentecoastals, so you don't know exactly what your going to get.

 

[Zork]

Got two hours?

I spent from 1990 to 1997 involved in the Pentecostal movement. Did it for the wrong reason, too; it was because the music was more "hip."

Started listening to R.C. Sproul about 1996-1997, initially had shouting matches with him about the sovereignty of God (Did you know that you can't shout down a pre-recorded radio show?). But upon revisiting passages like Romans 9, it started changing things.

Along with that, as I mentioned earlier, I started having questions about the pentecostal movement, questions that were not being answered by the parishoners or ministers with satisfaction. Like, why is everybody blurting out tongues when the Bible says that tongues are to be spoken by two or three at the most, and are to be interpreted? I also started thinking there was something wrong with me because I didn't want to run down the aisle to the altar blubbering and shaking like some other people were. Or because I wasn't getting all of these "revelations" about my life like others were. Or that the "second work of grace" seemed to come and go with my feelings.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

There are good, godly Christians in the pentecostal movement, people who truly believe in salvation by faith alone in Jesus Christ. But the movement's secondary errors as a whole are substantial enough at times to affect primary matters, and they don't line up with the Scriptures more often than they sometimes care to admit.

This was funny, I relate to all of this. HE HE.
Happened to me as well, isn't God awesome, even if we are stubborn and hard headed HE still saves us.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Scott1]

I don't understand why someone can't be both charismatic and Calvinist at the same time. There is a large movement like that in the UK. I was charismatic, but it has fallen by the wayside, largely for cultural reasons. It seems to me much more appropriate to bring atheists and agnostics to faith. Let the charismatics be. It'll all be sorted out in the end.

The big issues I have with charismaticism are these:
1.) an unscriptural approach to speaking in tongues, both in prinicple and in practice
2.) an unscriptural approach to sanctification (many charismatics believe in the "second work of grace/entire sanctification" movement)
3.) An overdependence on visible "signs and wonders" and emotionalism
4.) A belief (not always but often) that not using contemporary music is equal to "dead worship"
5.) An abusive stance on the normative principle of worship, via "anything goes" in the service, including drama, videos, etc.,
6.) A strong flirtation with semi-pelagianism, at times spilling over into Finneyism

That's for starters. And mind you, I was involved in the movement for some time, so I know of what I speak.

To start, charismatic/pentecostal communions, as they are defined in our generation cannot be reformed. Even those whose leaders presently hold to the doctrines of grace, e.g. Sovereign Grace ministries, have no confession, and assume dispensationalism or are simply unclear about that whole systematic doctrine.

Doctrines of grace + covenant theology + confession

Then add almost always

Low view of the church + low view of sacraments + practice assuming, ordinarily, special revelation comes through I Cor 12 gifts rather than that being the place of Scripture.

Many, but not all

Prosperity gospel, positive confession theology and no systematic theology at all.

Pentecostalism, especially, often adds binding men's conscience with rules that are not in Scripture (legalism)

There is a significant difference to start, and significant biblical error built upon itself. This is why there is such disorder in their communions.

Yet, despite all the error, there certainly are believers in them, and God has sometimes used them as vehicles toward more sound biblical faith and practice.

May God hasten the day, for His Honor, and His Glory.

 

[Zork]

I don't understand why someone can't be both charismatic and Calvinist at the same time. There is a large movement like that in the UK. I was charismatic, but it has fallen by the wayside, largely for cultural reasons. It seems to me much more appropriate to bring atheists and agnostics to faith. Let the charismatics be. It'll all be sorted out in the end.

The big issues I have with charismaticism are these:
1.) an unscriptural approach to speaking in tongues, both in prinicple and in practice
2.) an unscriptural approach to sanctification (many charismatics believe in the "second work of grace/entire sanctification" movement)
3.) An overdependence on visible "signs and wonders" and emotionalism
4.) A belief (not always but often) that not using contemporary music is equal to "dead worship"
5.) An abusive stance on the normative principle of worship, via "anything goes" in the service, including drama, videos, etc.,
6.) A strong flirtation with semi-pelagianism, at times spilling over into Finneyism

That's for starters. And mind you, I was involved in the movement for some time, so I know of what I speak.

To start, charismatic/pentecostal communions, as they are defined in our generation cannot be reformed. Even those whose leaders presently hold to the doctrines of grace, e.g. Sovereign Grace ministries, have no confession, and assume dispensationalism or are simply unclear about that whole systematic doctrine.

Doctrines of grace + covenant theology + confession

Then add almost always

Low view of the church + low view of sacraments + practice assuming, ordinarily, special revelation comes through I Cor 12 gifts rather than that being the place of Scripture.

Many, but not all

Prosperity gospel, positive confession theology and no systematic theology at all.

Pentecostalism, especially, often adds binding men's conscience with rules that are not in Scripture (legalism)

There is a significant difference to start, and significant biblical error built upon itself. This is why there is such disorder in their communions.

Yet, despite all the error, there certainly are believers in them, and God has sometimes used them as vehicles toward more sound biblical faith and practice.

May God hasten the day, for His Honor, and His Glory.

Hi, Give me your view of this please.
Can I give this to people if they ask me that question?(Why can't we combine Charismatic and Calvinism)

Five Concerns about the Merging of Charismatic and
Calvinistic Doctrine
www.tbcva.org/art02.pdf

 

[Scott1]

Ronny,

Often, people in those communions have little or no systematic biblical teaching so always approach this charitably, presuming you are dealing with Christian brothers.

The connection between "Calvinism" and what is called "charismatic/pentecostal" in our generation is often replacement of sola scriptura with seeking extra biblical special revelation as an ordinary means of grace. This is not biblical and undermines the Word, though most in those communions are not even conscious of what the implied doctrine and practice is doing.

With reformed theology, you have them outweighed on seven sides- that's not to justify pride, but rather humility as you cheerfully and carefully approach thoroughgoing ignorance.

Remember ignorance of God's Word is not okay for God's people- they are (we are) chastised in Scripture many times for it, yet also called to thank our God that His Word dispels it, to the end of His Honor and His Glory.

 

[John Bunyan]

Most protestants here are pentecostals (about 2/3 of us), and even the Catholic Church is becoming very charismatic (there are little groups of lay persons and priests advancing the so called "Catholic Charismatic Renewal", lots of singing priests, a growing appeal to miracles, icons, etc).

Oh, and for all I know some 25% of all christians worldwide are pentecostals (normal, deutero or neo)

 

[Theogenes]

I was in the charismatic movement from about 1973-1982. I started to read a lot of Francis Schaefer and drifted away from it into the Reformed faith. I think it grows fast because it appeals to the flesh.

 

[jogri17]

No offense but the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement (not the same thing per se) have been around for well over 50-60 years. Where have you been? Are you a new Christian and you're just encountering these things for the first time? I was converted at 15 and had to struggle with these things in the beginning of my Christian walk for the first 3 years or so until I encountered Wayne Grudem' DA Carson, and Louis Berkhof. I take a moderate cessationist posistion (normal v. extraordinary argument) just fyi.

 

[Zork]

No offense but the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement (not the same thing per se) have been around for well over 50-60 years. Where have you been? Are you a new Christian and you're just encountering these things for the first time? I was converted at 15 and had to struggle with these things in the beginning of my Christian walk for the first 3 years or so until I encountered Wayne Grudem' DA Carson, and Louis Berkhof. I take a moderate cessationist posistion (normal v. extraordinary argument) just fyi.

No offense but the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement (not the same thing per se) have been around for well over 50-60 years. Where have you been? Are you a new Christian and you're just encountering these things for the first time? I was converted at 15 and had to struggle with these things in the beginning of my Christian walk for the first 3 years or so until I encountered Wayne Grudem' DA Carson, and Louis Berkhof. I take a moderate cessationist posistion (normal v. extraordinary argument) just fyi.

Hi.
Okay, I was in a Charismatic/Pentecostal Church for 27 years. Where have I been? In that movement. If you check the history of the movement you will see that it is the same movement, they just changed a few things.(Watch Closely, LOL. ). Just kidding, Where to start?

Okay if you do your homework correctly you will see that the Pentecostals were there +-60 years before the Charismatics.

"by the definition of the current Charismatic Movement,
and the Pentecostals and the Charismatics are so blended now, you can't separate them..." J.MacArthur

The Pentecostal Movement

(The First Wave)

The modern classical Pentecostal movement began at the beginning of the 20th century and has its roots in the holiness movement and revivalism of the 2nd Great Awakening in America during the 19th century. See A Brief History of Pentecostalism. Many see it as the revival of Montanism, a second century heresy. See also Neo-Montanism: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived

From Bible.org comes a well written academic article well worth reading: Excited Utterances: A Historical Perspective On Prophesy, Tongues and Other Manifestations of Spiritual Ecstasy (Dr Matthew Allen). Chapter 2 of this article is on the heresy of Montanism.

Modern Pentecostals are distinguished by three main doctrines:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit
The manifestation of speaking in tongues
The manifestation of divine healing.

Speaking in tongues, also known as glossolalia, is seen as proof of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This is one of the differences between Pentecostal and Charismatic theology. See The Doctrine of Tongues (Harold MacKay) and Speaking in Tongues (Lehman Strauss). This experience of Spirit baptism and its initial evidence in tongue speaking must be earnestly sought by believers. It doesn't just happen; conditions must be met. Consciously, fervently, actively the seeker has to do these things. Often, too, he needs the assistance of others already filled with the Spirit. These must pray for him, lay hands on him before the Spirit will come. These conditions vary, but generally they are: worship, joyous faith, earnest expectation, praise and thanksgiving, obedience, separation from sin, intense desire, baptism, asking of God, etc.
Pentecostals differ from Fundamentalists by placing more emphasis on personal spiritual experience and, in most cases, by allowing women in ministry. For an interesting article from the reformed perspective on Pentecostalism, see Pentecostalism: Its identity, History and influence and Pentecostalism in light of the Word.

The biggest difference between Pentecostal belief and Fundamentals is not in the doctrine of justification, but in the doctrine of sanctification. Increasingly today, through the ministry of people such as Billy Graham, we see many denominations including the Church in Rome finding agreement on the doctrine of justification. However it is the doctrine of sanctification in which there is wide disagreement. Key to Pentecostalism is the concept of the Full Gospel. Pentecostals believe in the concept of The Full gospel which states that the Spirit has baptized every believer into Christ at the time of conversion (Justification), but that Christ has not yet baptized every believer into the Spirit (Pentecost). To enjoy the full gospel, this experience is therefore necessary. This is a misunderstanding of the doctrine of justification.

Pentecostals also do not believe in the perseverance of the saints. That is, they do not believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security. They believe it is possible to lose salvation. They are Arminian in doctrine, rejecting Calvinism.

Within Pentecostalism is a group represented by the United Pentecostal Church. This group denies the Trinity and is often known as Oneness Pentecostalism. For more information see the apologetics index on Oneness Pentecostalism (scroll down to find the section) and also Oneness Pentecostals and their Schizophrenic God by
Jay N. Forrest

Return to top

The Charismatic Renewal Movement

(The Second Wave)

The Charismatic Renewal movement began in the middle of the 20th century. At this time, Pentecostal doctrines spread into the mainline Protestant and Catholic churches as “charismatic renewal” movements with the aim of renewing the historic churches.

Charismatics differ from Pentecostals in their attitude towards doctrine. In the charismatic movement doctrine is seen as dividing believers. They shun the Biblical teaching on separation and encourage those who have ‘received the baptism’ to remain in their churches and denominations. As well, while Charismatics believe in the doctrine of Tongues, they do not place as much of an emphasis on this doctrine as Pentecostals do. In other words, it is possible to receive the baptism and not speak in tongues. See The Doctrine of Tongues (Harold MacKay) and Speaking in Tongues (Lehman Strauss)

Charismatics teach that you can get more of the Holy Spirit by being filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). For a discussion on this topic see The filling of the Spirit, (Eph. 5:18) (Mark Swaim) and also The Filling of the Holy Spirit: Is it the Biblical Basis for Christian Maturity? (Arthur F. Temmesfeld, Th.M)

The Line Drawn (MJ Stanford)

The book, Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur can be read on-line (scroll down to the charismatic chaos section)

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Ps. What can we learn about correction?

It is necessary. We must correct so that believers won’t be stifled in their Christian walk.
We are to be motivated by love. To correct is to show true love. It is like the Proverb says, “An honest answer is like a kiss on the lips” (Prov. 24:26).
We incorporate the Gospel. At the end of the day, we are “made right” by God showing us our sins. Once we see our sins, we see our need for the Savior!

Ouch Ouch Ouch. LOL. Be gentle. Please.Everyone is watching.