God needs your help and advice! So says Doug Wilson

[fredtgreco]

On several occasions, people have asked for things Wilson has actually written that are harmful. Well, with how prolific he is, and with virtually no filter mechanism from thought to publication, all you had to do was wait a few minutes.

This is not the most heretical or bad thing I have seen, but it is about the dumbest, in a long while. But it does shock and cause one to say, ooohhh, so it's right up Wilson's alley and serves his purpose.

Now if all this happens at the beginning of the service, what should our demeanor be in the rest of the service? We were not invited into God´s presence in order to stand around sheepishly. We are summoned to actively worship Him, praise Him, present our petitions to Him, and to give our advice to Him. Yes, you heard that last phrase rightly. We come into God´s presence in order to serve as members of His privy council, as members of His cabinet. Like Abraham, we are friends of God.

Full entry:
http://www.dougwils.com/Print.asp?Action=Anchor&CategoryID=1&BlogID=692

 

[Me Died Blue]

It makes one wonder what he will come up with next.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Omniscience in need of advice???

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Omniscience in need of advice???

Ahh, but Scott, what you are forgetting is that the traditional definition of "omniscience" is not in fact what the Bible means by the term, just as with "covenant" and "grace."

 

[pastorway]

Job 38
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'? 12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, 13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. 15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. 16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ? 18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this. 19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? 20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! 22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, 23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle? 24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? 25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, 26 to water a land where no man lives, a desert with no one in it, 27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass? 28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen? 31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? 32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? 34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? 35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'? 36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind ? 37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens 38 when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together? 39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions 40 when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?

Job 42
1 Then Job replied to the LORD : 2 "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. 3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' 5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

 

[Puritan Sailor]

So is Auburn embracing open theism too?

 

[Bladestunner316]

I have advice how about getting rid of that dumb blog!!! :bigsmile:

jk

well sorta ...

blade

 

[turmeric]

Well, I would tell God to speak a word of faith(Where's that dancing banana when I need it?). I'm waiting for him to say that God can't do anything about what goes on here until we invite him into the situation!

 

[Bladestunner316]

I feel something coming on the harvest is going to reep a plenty of silver and gold ..oh wait just heartburn nevermind

 

[daveb]

Not only does Wilson bring God down to man's level, he actually brings him down to a level lower than man. It seems Wilson's god is nowhere to be found in the pages of Scripture.

 

[Irishcat922]

Wilson sounds like a Charismatic now. That sounds like something you'd hear at a Benny Hinn meeting.

 

[turmeric]

Originally posted by Bladestunner316
I feel something coming on the harvest is going to reep a plenty of silver and gold ..oh wait just heartburn nevermind

I've been waiting for someone to bring up the "burning in the bosom" so I could say, yeah, I've experienced that but Digel is unbelievably effective!

 

[Bladestunner316]

 

[openairboy]

I realize I will get blasted for this, but is this really that big of a deal? I can think of a myriad of examples where the Lord relented of various things due to the prayers of men. I was just reading the Exodus tonight where the Lord listened to Moses, I can think of the sun standing still and the Lord listened to the voice of a man, I can think of Adam naming the animals, think of the prayers of Amos and Hosea for foregiveness and the Lord relents, Isaiah 62 says you who remind the Lord, etc., we reign with him, etc. We are heirs with Christ...

Yes, I don't necessarily like the word "advice", but...

Fortunately Fred said, "This is not the most heretical thing..."

openairboy

 

[DTK]

Originally posted by openairboy
I realize I will get blasted for this, but is this really that big of a deal? I can think of a myriad of examples where the Lord relented of various things due to the prayers of men. I was just reading the Exodus tonight where the Lord listened to Moses, I can think of the sun standing still and the Lord listened to the voice of a man, I can think of Adam naming the animals, think of the prayers of Amos and Hosea for foregiveness and the Lord relents, Isaiah 62 says you who remind the Lord, etc., we reign with him, etc. We are heirs with Christ...

Yes, I don't necessarily like the word "advice", but...

Yes, but what? That is the very point, is it not? Presenting a petition before God is a far cry from "giving him our advice."

Isaiah 40:13-14: Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

No blast, just a reminder of the counsel of the Almighty.

Blessings,
DTK

 

[Ianterrell]

Originally posted by DTK

Originally posted by openairboy
I realize I will get blasted for this, but is this really that big of a deal? I can think of a myriad of examples where the Lord relented of various things due to the prayers of men. I was just reading the Exodus tonight where the Lord listened to Moses, I can think of the sun standing still and the Lord listened to the voice of a man, I can think of Adam naming the animals, think of the prayers of Amos and Hosea for foregiveness and the Lord relents, Isaiah 62 says you who remind the Lord, etc., we reign with him, etc. We are heirs with Christ...

Yes, I don't necessarily like the word "advice", but...

Yes, but what? That is the very point, is it not? Presenting a petition before God is a far cry from "giving him our advice."

Isaiah 40:13-14: Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

No blast, just a reminder of the counsel of the Almighty.

Blessings,
DTK

Amen. What Wilson said is just wrong.

 

[turmeric]

If Wilson spoke in a forest and no one was there to hear, would he still be wrong?

 

[Me Died Blue]

Well, Wilson wouldn't see any point in speaking if God wasn't at least there - gotta have someone to advise.

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by DTK

Yes, but what? That is the very point, is it not? Presenting a petition before God is a far cry from "giving him our advice."

Isaiah 40:13-14: Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

No blast, just a reminder of the counsel of the Almighty.

Blessings,
DTK

Yes, but I don't think the use of "advice" is that big of a deal. Could the aforementioned examples be seen as "advice"? "Yhwh, don't destroy the Israelites, b/c it will bring ill repute to your name among the Egyptians", so Yhwh doesn't. Is that "advice"? I think someone can easily apply the word to that situation.

I realize Snoop Dougy Doug has a target on his back...

openairboy

P.S. Turmeric

 

[Ianterrell]

Good point Kieth.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Maybe Doug Wilson didn't really mean what it seems like he means. However, part the problem with the FV is ambiguity and flat-out confusion in communication. It seems like he ought to have been more careful with his words and not put himself up for this kind of (legitimate) criticism.

 

[DTK]

Originally posted by openairboy

Originally posted by DTK

Yes, but what? That is the very point, is it not? Presenting a petition before God is a far cry from "giving him our advice."

Isaiah 40:13-14: Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

No blast, just a reminder of the counsel of the Almighty.

Blessings,
DTK

Yes, but I don't think the use of "advice" is that big of a deal....

Yes, I think you've identified the spirit of this movement.

Blessings,
DTK

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by openairboy

Originally posted by DTK

Yes, but what? That is the very point, is it not? Presenting a petition before God is a far cry from "giving him our advice."

Isaiah 40:13-14: Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, Or as His counselor has taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?

No blast, just a reminder of the counsel of the Almighty.

Blessings,
DTK

Yes, but I don't think the use of "advice" is that big of a deal. Could the aforementioned examples be seen as "advice"? "Yhwh, don't destroy the Israelites, b/c it will bring ill repute to your name among the Egyptians", so Yhwh doesn't. Is that "advice"? I think someone can easily apply the word to that situation.

I realize Snoop Dougy Doug has a target on his back...

openairboy

P.S. Turmeric

Well Keih,

Part of the problem is that Wilson wants an initial shock reaction at his words. That is why he does things (and you can see it even in his next words: "Yes, you heard that last phrase rightly."

What Wilson is not talking about is prayer. If you read the whole post, he is commenting on the importance of corporate worship. We give advice in that context. He writes right before the quote in question:

Now if all this happens at the beginning of the service, what should our demeanor be in the rest of the service?

This is different from Abraham's prayer or the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man. He's trying to make a big deal from corporate worship. In typical Wilsonian style, he is on the right track (corporate worship is a big deal) but he does it along the wrong means and with a misstep (we don't advise God). I think there is an important difference betweena corporate "parliamentarian type gathering, and the pleadings of Moses. At the very least, it is a foolish way to word things, and leaves itself open to the grossest of misinterpretations that I am sure Wilson does not espouse (like Open Theism). Giving ammunition to the enemies of God for teh sake of being witty or cute is never wise. But then again, Wilson never misses an occasion to be witty or cute. He as much as says that "relgious sarcasm" is being Christlike in another blog post, and that's why he and his isolationist crew partake of it so often.

 

[wsw201]

The problem is ya'll just don't understand. Wilson is using the word "advice" biblically not theologically!

To those who dare to blaspheme Wilson (otherwise known as Philistines or Southern Presbyterians),

It seems that you are allowing your postmodern, enlightment influenced, systematic (ie; non-biblical) thinking get in the way.

 

[BobVigneault]

In Heaven I have a safety deposit box into which Christ has imputed his own righteousness - a couple aisles away there is a sugestion box so I can give God advice.

Here's my suggestion. How about bringing the dinosaurs back?

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by DTK
Yes, I think you've identified the spirit of this movement.

Blessings,
DTK

Yes, I have captured the essence of the dreaded "Advice Movement". Beware! I have already heard of several Presbyteries having to discipline ministers, because of their involvement in this movement. One minister, I know personally, has properly identified the movement and called it Hyper-Ann Landerism.

I think my adversity to the word "advice" stems from Al Pacino's influence on me as a boy. Wasn't it he who said, "The worst vice is advice"? Even with Al's warning, I don't think it is that big of deal, especially considering the fact that Moses seems to give his "advice" to Yhwh on several occassions. Not only that, but that Moses even talks about God "repenting", can you believe that? Fortunately JEPD did the editing and not us, because we would never have let him get away with that.

openairboy

 

[pastorway]

Moses interceded and asked God to take an action opposite of what He had said He would do. He did not advise God to repent. God does not need nor want our advise. And those who tink they have advise to offer God are foolish and should put their hand over their mouth like Job did.

Phillip

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
Well Keih,

Part of the problem is that Wilson wants an initial shock reaction at his words. That is why he does things (and you can see it even in his next words: "Yes, you heard that last phrase rightly."

What Wilson is not talking about is prayer. If you read the whole post, he is commenting on the importance of corporate worship. We give advice in that context. He writes right before the quote in question:

Now if all this happens at the beginning of the service, what should our demeanor be in the rest of the service?

This is different from Abraham's prayer or the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man. He's trying to make a big deal from corporate worship. In typical Wilsonian style, he is on the right track (corporate worship is a big deal) but he does it along the wrong means and with a misstep (we don't advise God). I think there is an important difference betweena corporate "parliamentarian type gathering, and the pleadings of Moses. At the very least, it is a foolish way to word things, and leaves itself open to the grossest of misinterpretations that I am sure Wilson does not espouse (like Open Theism). Giving ammunition to the enemies of God for the sake of being witty or cute is never wise. But then again, Wilson never misses an occasion to be witty or cute. He as much as says that "relgious sarcasm" is being Christlike in another blog post, and that's why he and his isolationist crew partake of it so often.

I can agree with much of that.

openairboy

 

[openairboy]

Originally posted by pastorway
Moses interceded and asked God to take an action opposite of what He had said He would do. He did not advise God to repent. God does not need nor want our advise. And those who tink they have advise to offer God are foolish and should put their hand over their mouth like Job did.

Phillip

This will be my last post on the topic, because I think it rather fruitless to debate over the word "advice", because I honestly don't think many would allow people to speak of God "repenting" if it wasn't explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

Anyway, "But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, "œO Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, "˜With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth´? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people."

Merriam Webster defines advice as: "recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct", and Phillip says, "Moses interceded and asked God to take an action opposite of what He had said He would do [recommendation regarding a course of conduct?]." I think Phillip's words are pretty close to that of Merriam Webster's defintion of "advice". Sorry, but that sounds a lot like advice to me.

I'll follow that fool Moses over our theologians any day of the week.

openairboy

 

[DTK]

This will be my last post on the topic, because I think it rather fruitless to debate over the word "advice", because I honestly don't think many would allow people to speak of God "repenting" if it wasn't explicitly stated in the Scriptures.

I'll simply state the obvious. There is a world of difference between what is God-breathed and what is Wilson-breathed. And I've already shown you what is God-breathed with respect to this matter. But the manner of your contesting does underscore the spirit of this movement. I suppose that with the advent of the postmodern mindset, there's not a word extant today that isn't subject to the death of a thousand qualifications. With such linguistic gymnastics like that, why ever accept the obvious when you can explain it away a thousand different ways?

Blessings,
DTK