Friend Struggling with Evolution

AgentWillis

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello,

This is my first post here and I certainly hope to be more involved in the future.

On another note, I recently was approached by a friend of mine who has been struggling with his faith. Particularly, when it comes to the issue of evolution. Recently, he reached out with a selection of text from an article published in "The Guardian" newspaper and was curious for my thoughts. I'm no expert and while I've been working on a response. I'd be happy to hear other people's thoughts on the text below. From reading other threads on the matter prior to joining it's quite clear they're a number of individuals who may be competent to speak on this matter.

THE CONTENT:

“Charles Darwin hardly ever used the word “evolution”. He chose the phrase “descent with modification”. He did not coin the term “survival of the fittest”. He did not suggest that evolution was a form of progress. For him, an amoeba in a puddle of water was just as suited to its environment as a duck on a lake or a preacher in a pulpit. ….”

“ Gregor Mendel’s 1866 study of garden peas, which was to become the foundation of modern genetics, was published in German, in a Moravian journal, and was not widely known until the beginning of the 20th century. DNA was identified during the second world war, but its role in the replication of life and the transmission of traits was not known until 1953. Both pieces of research confirmed the Darwinian argument that all life had descended, with modifications, from a common ancestry, and that natural conditions tend to favour useful variations at the expense of handicaps.

If detailed scientific confirmation appeared so long after Darwin’s death, why did so many people accept his logic at the time? Because so many things – anatomical likenesses, skeletal similarities (the domestic dog, the farmyard animal and the garden vegetable, to name a few) – made it obvious that there had been some changes in species over time. Half a dozen great scientists, including Darwin’s grandfather Erasmus, had already proposed some form of evolution. What Darwin did was assemble, with a mass of evidence and close reasoning, the best argument for believing that it had happened by the action of natural selection on random mutation. When he first read this argument, his friend and supporter Thomas Henry Huxley is supposed to have clapped his head and said: “How extremely stupid of me not to have thought of that!”

Why does Darwin’s theory matter now? Because it is the basis of modern biology and much medical research; because it provides a tool with which to understand the natural world; because it offers a deeper, if imperfect, understanding of our behaviour, about where we came from and where we might be going. The philosopher Daniel Dennett once called it “the single best idea anybody ever had”.- Evolution and Darwin, The Guardian


END CONTENT

Appreciate any info.
 
A heavily common genetic structure does not require evolution. It's equally valid as an argument for creation because God didn't need to design 10, 100, or 1000 different ways to do X function.

One's presuppositions dictate the response to such findings. The fact that there's flexibility within that framework within species is also not something that requires one argument or the other. it's being used as a "gotcha" in favor of evolution but it's also not a "gotcha" for creation.

Caveat here: not a scientist and high school level science education (some secular and some Christian sources).
 
Evolution by natural selection has been challenged on multiple mathematical grounds. One example:

 
Like the Guardian is a good source of all things scientific...

Multiple things are being conflated in the article. I'm sure it's a logical fallacy or rather many @RamistThomist
Adaptation or speciation is widely seen and known. Does that mean common descent? The leap is huge even assuming convergent 'evolution.'
Do things work in a similar way? Yes...otherwise there'd be chaos. As for the behavior portion. I have many things to say but let it suffice to say that evolutionary psychology is regarded as a pseudoscience even amongst evolutionary biologists.
 
“descent with modification”
obvious that there had been some changes in species over time.
natural conditions tend to favour useful variations
All of this is compatible with the Christian faith. As Trent pointed out, there are multiple things being conflated in the article, chiefly the distinction between micro- and macro- evolution. Species do change over time (micro-evolution) - Scripture testifies to this (for example, the shortening of the human lifespan, which I believe is due to the effects of sin all the way down to our genetic material) - but they do not become a new species.

There are also the common errors of macro-evolution in this article. For example:
...the best argument for believing that it had happened by the action of natural selection on random mutation.
Try to find an example of a beneficial mutation. Again, I believe mutations are linked back to the effect(-s) of sin, so they are always going to be to the detriment of the species. That certain members of a species die while others live (and thus pass on their genetics) when their environment changes is not adaptation and not random, it's survival. For example, giraffes did not grow longer necks when food became scarce - rather, when food became scarce, those with the genetics of longer necks survived, naturally passing on whatever genetic combination contributed to that feature.
 
Hello,

This is my first post here and I certainly hope to be more involved in the future.

On another note, I recently was approached by a friend of mine who has been struggling with his faith. Particularly, when it comes to the issue of evolution. Recently, he reached out with a selection of text from an article published in "The Guardian" newspaper and was curious for my thoughts. I'm no expert and while I've been working on a response. I'd be happy to hear other people's thoughts on the text below. From reading other threads on the matter prior to joining it's quite clear they're a number of individuals who may be competent to speak on this matter.

Hi Greg, welcome,
Wow! Blessed art thou with these two mercies: 1) OPC'er (the only perfect church:)—Awesome! From Raleigh, NC.—Also very cool. :)

A while ago, a thread touched on this that you might find helpful. The thread is about whether or not science, properly so-called, has any business at all weighing in on the supposed findings of Science that support Evolution. "Are not those two words, Natural & Science together an oxymoron? I think so."

In a thread titled,
The Proper Domain of (Natural) Science

Here's my tiny contribution in post #10
 
Why does Darwin’s theory matter now? Because it is the basis of modern biology and much medical research; because it provides a tool with which to understand the natural world; because it offers a deeper, if imperfect, understanding of our behaviour, about where we came from and where we might be going. The philosopher Daniel Dennett once called it “the single best idea anybody ever had”.- Evolution and Darwin, The Guardian

END CONTENT

Appreciate any info.
Evolution is an attempt by science to do what religion does, by answering the fundamental questions about life apart from God. All the bolded phrases reflect ways in which evolution steps outside of the realm of pure science. Piggybacking on what @Theoretical said, many things can be viewed with plausibility from either a creationist or evolutionary viewpoint; it's about the presuppositions. Both worldviews require a degree of faith.
 
I appreciate the thoughts and bits that have been provided everyone, thank you.

Also, thank you for the outreach and warm welcome, Ed. I will take a look at those links.

@arapahoepark I have the same thoughts about evolutionary psychology too. "Just so" stories bandied about as if it is settled truth in order to provide a convenient explanation for anything.
 
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2nd Commandment violation, often in regards to images of Christ in movies and such nowadays .
Not to derail, but is it that a movie depiction of Christ is in violation?

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship."

It seems to me that the worship of the image is in view here, not its depiction divorced from that. If it is the case that the mere depiction is the violation, then taking pictures, making sculptures and the like of things on the earth and under the sea are also violations. No more wedding photos, no more "Shark week" on Discovery channel, no more coloring books, no more Rembrandt, and no more anything in that vein if we want to be consistent.
 
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Moderating. Let's not derail the thread. The Reformed view of the Second Commandment is that pictures of Christ are idolatry, as noted in Westminster Larger Catechism 109 below, which is the position of this board.
Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,529 counselling,530 commanding,531 using,532 and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;533 the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;534 all worshipping of it,535 or God in it or by it;536 the making of any representation of feigned deities,537 and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,538 all superstitious devices,539 corrupting the worship of God,540 adding to it, or taking from it,541 whether invented and taken up of ourselves,542 or received by tradition from others,543 though under the title of antiquity,544 custom,545 devotion,546 good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;547 simony;548 sacrilege;549 all neglect,550 contempt,551 hind ering,552 and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.553.
Lots of literature explaining this here.
Not to derail, but is it that a movie depiction of Christ is in violation?

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship."

It seems to me that the worship of the image is in view here, not its depiction divorced from that. If it is the case that the mere depiction is the violation, then taking pictures, making sculptures and the like of things on the earth and under the sea are also violations. No more wedding photos, no more "Shark week" on Discovery channel, no more coloring books, no more Rembrandt, and no more anything in that vein if we want to be consistent.
 
Moderating. Let's not derail the thread. The Reformed view of the Second Commandment is that pictures of Christ are idolatry, as noted in Westminster Larger Catechism 109 below, which is the position of this board.
Q. 109. What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,529 counselling,530 commanding,531 using,532 and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;533 the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;534 all worshipping of it,535 or God in it or by it;536 the making of any representation of feigned deities,537 and all worship of them, or service belonging to them,538 all superstitious devices,539 corrupting the worship of God,540 adding to it, or taking from it,541 whether invented and taken up of ourselves,542 or received by tradition from others,543 though under the title of antiquity,544 custom,545 devotion,546 good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever;547 simony;548 sacrilege;549 all neglect,550 contempt,551 hind ering,552 and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.553.
Lots of literature explaining this here.
I will of course comply. May I ask for clarification on one point, not out of a desire to be combative but for understanding? The creed also states "any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever". If we wish to be consistent with the creed, and i think we would all like to, then posting pictures or memes that include " any creature whatsoever". Is verboten? Dogs and cats?
 
I will of course comply. May I ask for clarification on one point, not out of a desire to be combative but for understanding? The creed also states "any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever". If we wish to be consistent with the creed, and i think we would all like to, then posting pictures or memes that include " any creature whatsoever". Is verboten? Dogs and cats?
"the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever"

The context is in reference to depicting God, not images in general.

Also, I was not trying to be critical of Steve's recommendation of the video, I do think it looks interesting. I would just prefer to know about such things ahead of time so I could perhaps hit the "skip" button, and save my kids some confusion, especially if I've previewed it myself first.
 
David, Mike is correct. This is standard Reformed; nothing unique to Westminster. You can find it expressed in one of the standard Reformed theology textbooks prior to the Westminster Assembly, the Leyden professors' Synopsis Purioris Theologiae (Synopsis of a Purer Theology), and it is standard in puritan literature. See the literature at the link I gave.
I will of course comply. May I ask for clarification on one point, not out of a desire to be combative but for understanding? The creed also states "any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever". If we wish to be consistent with the creed, and i think we would all like to, then posting pictures or memes that include " any creature whatsoever". Is verboten? Dogs and cats?

"the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever"

The context is in reference to depicting God, not images in general.

Also, I was not trying to be critical of Steve's recommendation of the video, I do think it looks interesting. I would just prefer to know about such things ahead of time so I could perhaps hit the "skip" button, and save my kids some confusion, especially if I've previewed it myself first.
 
"the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever"

The context is in reference to depicting God, not images in general.

Also, I was not trying to be critical of Steve's recommendation of the video, I do think it looks interesting. I would just prefer to know about such things ahead of time so I could perhaps hit the "skip" button, and save my kids some confusion, especially if I've previewed it myself first.

Mine came in the mail yesterday. I will be happy to report back soon any 2CV in the scenes that tie in the Flood with the Gospel of Christ.
 
David, Mike is correct. This is standard Reformed; nothing unique to Westminster. You can find it expressed in one of the standard Reformed theology textbooks prior to the Westminster Assembly, the Leyden professors' Synopsis Purioris Theologiae (Synopsis of a Purer Theology), and it is standard in puritan literature. See the literature at the link I gave.
 
"The context is in reference to depicting God, not images in general."

Okie dokie. I'm still lost as to why the verse included a caveat concerning things on earth and in sea, and not leave it at The Trinity that being the case, but that is not a wonder since I'm not a theologian, but just another spoke in the wheel. Again, not arguing because you indeed know more than I do ( not being passive aggressive, I truly believe that because I've read enough from you to see it). It is your house sir, you won't have to tell me to wipe my feet and stay outta the fridge twice lol!
 
Mike, I don't recall if it did (my memory is not too good anymore), though I don't think so. Brad will clarify. I streamed it, and don't have a DVD, so I can't check.
 
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Mike, I don't recall if it did (my memory is not to good anymore), though I don't think so. Brad will clarify. I streamed it, and don't have a DVD, so I can't check.
Ok, thank you. I gather from the trailer that the primary thrust of the video is the fall, and man's rebellion pre and post-flood.

Was a significant part of the video also directed towards creation, and refuting evolutionary theory?
 
To further elaborate, my friend had seen a post on the Heidelblog that was reviewing a book from Gavin Ortlund. He referred it to me. The issue of evolution was brought up in the book with the general sense that Ortlund seemed a bit too open to evolutionary ideas. At least, that was the gist according to the reviewer.
 
Mike, you asked, "Was a significant part of the video also directed towards creation, and refuting evolutionary theory?" Yes, indeed, and that very well done. Also, referring to the world-wide judgment of the flood (the historicity of the flood – and many proofs pertaining to that – a major part of the film), and how there will be another global judgment – this time by fire, and not water – at the end of time, for it will be "as it was in the days of Noah".

It compared the evolutionary theory with the facts creation science has established, and found the former greatly wanting.
 
Ok, thank you. I gather from the trailer that the primary thrust of the video is the fall, and man's rebellion pre and post-flood.

Was a significant part of the video also directed towards creation, and refuting evolutionary theory?

Good afternoon,

Lots of depictions of Christ in shadow or from the back so one can only see the back of his head - no face ever. One depiction had a front view with hands outstretched and his face covered in pure light.

It was directly addressing evolution for about ~ 3/4 of it and then ~ the last 1/4 was the Gospel presentation. The transition was jarring. The first 3/4 is very scientific and detailed and then they just kind of spring into full Gospel presentation and it felt disorienting, but not off-putting that I wouldn't watch it again.
 
Lots of depictions of Christ in shadow or from the back so one can only see the back of his head - no face ever. One depiction had a front view with hands outstretched and his face covered in pure light.
Interesting. Almost like they don't want people to associate a certain face with that of Christ, but needing to have some kind of visual element.

It was directly addressing evolution for about ~ 3/4 of it and then ~ the last 1/4 was the Gospel presentation. The transition was jarring. The first 3/4 is very scientific and detailed and then they just kind of spring into full Gospel presentation and it felt disorienting, but not off-putting that I wouldn't watch it again.
Well, that's better than having the presentation on creation vs. evolution be the gospel. Maybe the jarring shift was deliberate.

I would say that sometimes we even need that kind of treatment. Being jarred out of our comfortability. Also, the presentation of God's mercy, in light of his holiness and wrath, in and of itself should be suprising. Grace should shock us if we truly understand our condition as sinful people.
 
The Discovery Institute (https://www.discovery.org) has published some very helpful articles highlighting the scientific challenges to Darwinian evolution. To me, one of the most intriguing observations is that since the discovery of DNA, we now understand that there is no such thing as a simple cell or simple life form (a basic evolutionary assumption). All living cells are complex beyond human comprehension. Further, cellular reproduction is guided by a genetic code, an unfathomably complex set of instructions, that coordinates the myriad processes necessary for a cell to reproduce. That genetic code is a repository of information. This completely changes the paradigm of reproduction. No longer can we assume that enhancements to cells is a physical process subject to mechanical manipulation. Rather, we now understand that any enhancement to cellular function requires intelligent, highly sophisticated and complex instructions. Not only that, but the instructions are teleological; they have an objective in view which rules out random mutation as mecahnism of change. Evolutionary theory has no provision for the random generation of the biological “computer code” required to replicate a cell.

Check out the videos of the interworking of the cell. Fascinating.
 
Is it any wonder that a world filled with God hating atheists would build upon a system that takes God out of the picture?

When I took classes of evolutionary biology at university I learned that the professors did not have the answers to key macro-evolutionary questions. And then you look into how scientists draw their conclusions for these kind of processes, the supporting evidence is extremely weak and inferences are built on one assumption after another.

Evolution on the established observable level however can be fascinating, mainly I think because of the sheer variety of potential factors and pressures at play in processes like speciation (with factors competing with natural selection like gene flow, gene drift, reproductive isolation, etc.).
 
Evolution on the established observable level however can be fascinating, mainly I think because of the sheer variety of potential factors and pressures at play in processes like speciation (with factors competing with natural selection like gene flow, gene drift, reproductive isolation, etc.).
That's micro-evolution and it's a really fascinating example to me of how the people who control the language control the discourse. Micro-evolution is not evolution.
 
it's a really fascinating example to me of how the people who control the language control the discourse. Micro-evolution is not evolution.

It's not really all that big a deal unless one makes it a big deal unnecessarily.

Everything Alex said is 100% true. Everything you said is 100% true. If anyone takes a course in evolutionary biology, they will learn a ton of micro-evolution and radiometric dating in the context of serving a macro-evolutionary hypothesis in order to make it seem more than a hypothesis but solid theoretical modeling of proven fact. It is no small thing that it is taught by true believers and attended by true believers. God help our youth going into medicine, etc.
 
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