Free Offer Divided Discussion

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Perhaps Vos will help (Reformed Dogmatics, 3:145-148, emphasis added):

64. To what do the opponents of particular satisfaction appeal?

Mainly to three things:

a) To the universal offer of the gospel, concerning which all agree.
b) To a series of Scriptural passages that speak of bearing the sins of the entire world and of dying for all.
c) To some passages that make mention of a death of those for whom Christ has already died.

65. How should the first of these (the universal offer of the gospel) be judged?

The objection is that the presentation of the gospel becomes a meaningless form for those who do not share in the satisfaction of Christ. If we look more closely, this general objection involves three specific objections that are usually not sharply distinguished from each other, yet are essentially different.

a) It is irreconcilable with the truthfulness of God that He would offer the gospel and the merits of Christ in it to those for whom He Himself did not intend them. God would thereby give the impression that He wills to do something that in fact He does not will.
b) On our position, ministers of the gospel, one thinks, lose the right to direct a general invitation to people.
c) The hearers of the gospel could not have confidence to rely on the suretyship and the satisfaction of Christ as long as they have not received infallible assurance that they personally belong to the elect. My confidence in believing can only rest on the fact that Christ has suffered for me. If He has not suffered for all, then I will first need to know whether I belong among those for whom He has surely suffered before I can have solid ground under me.

66. What may be said to counter the first form of this objection?

a) That the offer of the gospel is not and does not present itself to be a revelation of God’s secret will or of the will of His decree. If this were so, a contradiction would in fact exist that would detract from God’s love of truth. If the following had to be concluded: God has the firm intention to bring them personally to salvation and now it depends on A or B whether you will meet God’s purpose or disappoint Him—if this was the content of the gospel—then particular election and satisfaction would indeed be excluded. This, however, is not the content of our gospel or of the gospel of Scripture. This gospel does not express itself concerning the secret will of God but speaks of His revealed will. We understand this revealed will to include the command of God that comes to man and in each particular instance is determined by the specific relationship of man to God. Now, there is no doubt that it is the obligation of man to accept the possibility of redemption that is offered to him in the gospel, hopefully and gratefully. God can make that demand, and the gospel comes with that demand to all men.
b) That the content of the gospel, as it is presented to all without distinction, is a declaration of the will of God that A and B, etc., may personally be saved, but that still in this regard should always be considered a conditional will. It is not only that we are not dealing with God’s secret will; we are also dealing with His revealed will under a specific condition. In God there is no unsatisfied desire that has silence imposed on it by His secret will. The desire of God can be understood as follows: If you believed, then the good pleasure of God would rest upon this act of faith. This conditional character is thus always to be kept in view and kept in the foreground.
c) It is true that in the sense just described the gospel comes to many for whom Christ has not died. But at the same time it is true that these are precisely those who willfully despise the sacrifice of Christ. It may never be portrayed as if countless sinners who, eager for salvation, are seeking a ransom [and] now have to be dismissed with the explanation, “This ransom was not meant for you.” In doing that, one would be entertaining purely abstract possibilities that under the present circumstances could never become reality. The truth is that not a single instance of this kind can occur. God’s ordaining is such that all those for whom Christ in His purposing has not died are precisely the same as those who reject Christ by their unbelief. Even if satisfaction were universal, this can make no difference regarding their personal attitude toward it. In reality, they would no more share in it then than now.
d) As noted above, the gospel is intended to deprive man of every excuse and to place the magnitude of his corruption in the clearest light. That is why God does not let the gospel be proclaimed only to the elect but also brings it indiscriminately to all men (as far as it in fact reaches them and, in principle, as far as we can bring it to them). Now a sifting takes place. But now, too, sin in its inner essence comes to full flowering because it becomes unbelief in the face of grace. It belongs to God’s righteousness toward sin that it will also reveal its true character to sinners themselves. The preaching of the gospel contributes to this. This came out most clearly at the time of the appearance of the Mediator on earth in the flesh. Unbelief reacted against Him, the incarnation of grace, in the most decisive way. Naturally, aggravation of guilt is inseparable from this reaction of sin and its related development. However, no one can dispute God’s right to bring man into contact with the gospel, even if by that his judgment becomes more severe. Whoever disputes this right takes an Arminian standpoint and tacitly assumes that God owed satisfaction to man. It is the obligation of man to accept in faith everything that God presents to him. And once this obligation is present, God cannot act unjustly when He punishes the failure to meet this obligation, regardless of whether man is able to fulfill his duty.
e) Preaching has as its goal to call everyone it reaches: “If you will, take freely from the water of life” [Rev 22:17]; and “If you come, He will by no means cast you out” [John 6:37]. But it has neither the calling nor the right to make of this “willing” something other than Scripture means by it. It is not to be presented in a Methodistic manner as a sudden, uncaused act of will, a kind of experiment that can be independent of all antecedent conditions. The willing to which Scripture alludes is the willing of faith, of saving faith, the deepest act a person can do, in which his entire being shares and concurs—an act that becomes entirely impossible and incomprehensible without a prior attitude of repentance, to which it is linked and from which it in part results. Thus to will, along with putting aside all confidence in one’s self, is to have such a delight in the work of Christ and such an inner conviction of its sufficiency that we reach out for it with all the strength that is in us.
Now, the freest preaching of the gospel must make clear that such a willing is the only means by which we can become partakers of Christ. If one will not be untruthful, then the significance of faith may never disappear. And the preventive against this difficulty is a preaching of the law accompanying the preaching of the gospel. Whoever does not first bring the sinner to an awareness of his lost condition will also not elicit true faith in his heart by preaching. It is simply not true that everyone has a right to Christ who just chooses to believe at whim. The faith to which the recent methods of evangelism incite is something irrational. The faith of Scripture is a faith supernaturally wrought by the Spirit of God but still not an unnatural faith.
 
I guess for me it’s terminological and contextual confusion. What was Pastor Winzer referring to specifically in his response? What is the origin of the term well meant offer? How does the free offer differ if some are predestined by nature and decree to reprobation? If it is Gods revealed will that none should perish, even though some do, is that not a different will or a different attribute of God at play? Can’t the Christian be well meaning in sharing the gospel? What does one believer receive that another has not? Who can boast? Just cause we label an offer ‘free,’ is it truly for the reprobate? There are some who will receive a well meant offer and fall away as per his/her true spiritual reprobate state...... so this becomes a semantic issue. I was seeing well meant as meaning sincere from the finite human side. You would have to provide an origin of the term for me to wholly comprehend it
Some keep conflating the free offer with the well meant offer. The quote below is from Matthew Winzer. I think it answers quite forcefully that the well meant offer is fictitious. Its all good but I bolded certain parts that I think are excellent.


“How does this so-called "well-meant offer" persuade any one that what God desires has any bearing on his own salvation? If God desires the salvation of all, and all are not saved, it is obvious that this "desire" is no warrant for, or object of, saving faith.

The gospel call reveals that God desires the salvation of all who believe. This gives suitable and sufficient warrant to believe, and a sure persuasion that the believer shall be saved.

What is the chaff to the wheat? The gospel was never designed to save a reprobate person because a reprobate person is one who by definition will continue in unbelief. It is foolish to redesign the gospel so as to make it fit the condition of one who will never believe it.

Those who continue in unbelief will suffer the righteous vengeance of God. The gospel reveals this. So-called well-meant offer advocates ignore the plain facts of revelation. If the offer of salvation implies that God desires the salvation of all men, what does the threatening of judgment imply? If they were honest they would have to say that God desires the damnation of all men; and their honesty would demonstrate that their universalist "desire" is not sincere and serious afterall. Their use of the term "well-meant" is meaningless.

The gospel of a non-saving love of God for the reprobate is a fiction of man's own creating. When so-called Calvinists affirm this doctrine they end up with two wills of God, two gospels, two Christs. They know not what they affirm.

A genuinely sincere, serious offer of salvation is maintained when it is proclaimed that God offers salvation to sinners as sinners INDEFINITELY. It is the office of faith to appropriate the promises of the gospel by laying hold of them for oneself; and the promises are only sealed where faith is exercised.”
 
In my simpleton mind it's not complicated- when men preach the gospel to sinners, it's ok to be well-meant on our part, ok that we earnestly desire every hearer to come to Christ and be saved, without concern over God's decretive will. We are to love our enemies and pray for them; but for the ones of those who are reprobate, Christ isn't praying for them and never will. So, men can and should have the sincere desire to see a man saved; men can and should pray for a man to be saved; even though it will often turn out that Christ was not praying for that one.
 
I think the confusion lies in attributing the term free offer to men and well meant offer to God.... this is a very strange internal debate since I cant see any Calvinist believing well meant offer to mean a universal and man dependent condition of salvation. I see the term ‘well meant’ as meaning conditional as per Gods elective decree.... but if there is this much confusion should there not be at least a summary of examples of what not and what to say when preaching and witnessing.....

But the real crux of this issue is does God love the reprobate? That’s the starting point. I will go out on a limb and say God did not love Charles Manson

https://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_35.html
 
I think the confusion lies in attributing the term free offer to men and well meant offer to God.... this is a very strange internal debate since I cant see any Calvinist believing well meant offer to mean a universal and man dependent condition of salvation. I see the term ‘well meant’ as meaning conditional as per Gods elective decree.... but if there is this much confusion should there not be at least a summary of examples of what not and what to say when preaching and witnessing.....

But the real crux of this issue is does God love the reprobate? That’s the starting point. I will go out on a limb and say God did not love Charles Manson

https://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_35.html

Perhaps the best instruction regarding how to proclaim and offer Christ is to look at the preaching of the apostles to unbelievers in the book of Acts. They do not say "God loves you". They do say that God is patient, long-suffering, and kind. But always there is an emphasis upon impending judgment against sin and the truthful offer of mercy to escape it through Christ. Granted, those sermons are probably only summaries of the actual sermons, but the high-points are there for our instruction.
 
Thank you for this thread. I’ve leaned some things..... I understand why these are important matters and clarifications. So many slippery slopes and paths toward heresy and apostasy in our day....we can learn from the past as we stand on the shoulders of giants
 
"[God] does not leave us in suspense when he says, that he wishes all to be saved. Why so? for if no one repents without finding God propitious, then this sentence is filled up. But we must remark that God puts on a twofold character: for he here wishes to be taken at his word. [That is,]...the Prophet ... wishes to keep our attention close to God‟s word. Now, what are the contents of this word? The law, the prophets, and the gospel. Now all are called to repentance, and the hope of salvation is promised them when they repent: this is true, since God rejects no returning sinner: he pardons all without exception; meanwhile, this will of God which he sets forth in his word does not prevent him from decreeing before the world was created what he would do with every individual...."

-- Calvin, Lectures Ezek. 18:23 [1565], CTS, 248.

Notice that we are to rest our assumptions upon God's Revealed will, for we do not know God's Secret Decrees.

and again, more plainly, Calvin writes:

"[T]he will of God as mentioned here must be judged by the result. Seeing that in His Word He calls all alike to salvation, and this is the object of preaching, that all should take refuge in His faith and protection, it is right to say that He wishes all to gather to Him. Now the nature of the Word shows us that here there is no description of the secret counsel of God (arcanum Dei consilium)—just His wishes. Certainly those whom He wishes effectively to gather, He draws inwardly by His Spirit, and calls them not merely by man‟s outward voice. If anyone objects that it is absurd to split God‟s will (duplicem in Deo voluntatem fingi), I answer that this is exactly our belief, that His will is one and undivided: but because our minds cannot plumb the profound depths of His secret election (ad profundam acranae electionis abyssum) to suit our infirmity, the will of God is set before us as double (bifariam)."

---Calvin, Comm. Matt. 23:37 [1555], CNTC, 69.
 
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Clearly, one of the reasons these discussions become interminable is because in the same quote, both sides see support for their own position. What seems like it ought to be a slam dunk argument, then, simply confirms the other side in its view.

This could be because one side or another (or both) are not grasping what the other is trying to argue; it could be that historical sources are being appealed to anachronistically; or that they are being cited without first understanding them on their own terms. Or, of course, it could be some combination of those options.

What's the solution? Probably not to have the identical conversation every two or three years, with the same quotes, videos, etc. posted. Rather, a patient attempt at listening seems called for. For instance, it is essential to bear in mind that distinctions about the will of God are correlative contrasts. In other words, "preceptive" vs. "decretive" has meaning. "Revealed" vs. "secret" has meaning. "Revealed" vs. "decretive" is not a correlative contrast, and thus distorts the nature of the distinction. God's desires for the salvation of sinners are certainly revealed, rather than secret; they are also preceptive, rather than decretive.
 
I inferred that you saw "the wicked" or "the lost" or "sinners" as some need to coinser that class.

You see what I've been trying to note is that God's revealed will, as sinners hear the Gospel, is that He bids sinners to believe. As I look out and see sinners I can honestly and sincerely let them know that the Gospel is offered to them. Believe on Christ.

Agreed.

What you are saying is that God has the same disposition toward all the lost and that is our basis for our concern for the lost.

Not quite. God certainly commands all to repent and believe. We could say the basis of the free offer is God's law. As far as God's disposition, this is our example of concern for the lost.

I believe the idea that God bids sinners to come to Christ and ought not doubt that He can save them can be sustained by revealed theology while the idea that God has the same disposition toward all the lost cannot be demonstrated and can't be the basis for our own concern for the lost.

Revealed theology is based, obviously, in what God reveals about Himself.

Jer. 36:3 "It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin."

44:4 "However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, 'Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!'”

I listed many other biblical texts that go beyond simply a command but a desire of God for repentance of those who never repented (many more texts in post #34). Since the bible is our source for understanding God's revealed will, I cannot concede that attributing to God a disposition of concern for the lost is unbiblical, nor can I say the passage teaches nothing by assigning anthropomorphic language that would deny the concern that God communicates.

Romans 8-9 and John 6 make plain that there are those whom He foreknew (loved) and, as sinners ourselves, I hope you actually don't believe that God has the exact same disposition to you as He does to those who are not "in Christ". The Son clearly has a Bride and our very confidence is that God is for us (we who are still corrupt united to His Son).

No, nor do I believe that for me to love my wife and my enemies takes the exact same expression in both parties.

But that knowledge is not a basis for any creature to consider the lost according to the way God may conceive of them by HIs natural knowledge. As far as we're concerned, they're lsot and God has a real, genuined offer of salvation for all who believe upon His Son. Whether God, in His hidden decree may not grant the condition of faith is of no consequence to us or our motivation. Even if we don't see faith exercised we don't have any warrant but to be patient and long suffering toward all hoping that God may grant them repentance. Our "hope" or "concern" for people isn't that God has some sort of undifferentiated love for all but that He is strong to save and we know that those Whom He calls He justifies and glorifies.

Rich, we have so many examples of the all-knowing God demonstrating the patience you call Christians to (Rev. 2:21 says He gives them time to repent, though they would not). I feel as if you are glossing what God reveals about his own character in relation to the lost while suggesting that I am prying into God's unsearchable nature and "coming up with this" on my own apart from revelation. God reveals to us His disposition towards sinners even when He knows they will reject Him. Is it our system that is muddying the waters?

Again, I think we largely agree, but I'm having difficulty understanding why there are issues talking about God's disposition towards the lost when He reveals His disposition concerning the lost...
 
"[God] does not leave us in suspense when he says, that he wishes all to be saved. Why so? for if no one repents without finding God propitious, then this sentence is filled up. But we must remark that God puts on a twofold character: for he here wishes to be taken at his word. [That is,]...the Prophet ... wishes to keep our attention close to God‟s word. Now, what are the contents of this word? The law, the prophets, and the gospel. Now all are called to repentance, and the hope of salvation is promised them when they repent: this is true, since God rejects no returning sinner: he pardons all without exception; meanwhile, this will of God which he sets forth in his word does not prevent him from decreeing before the world was created what he would do with every individual...."

-- Calvin, Lectures Ezek. 18:23 [1565], CTS, 248.

Notice that we are to rest our assumptions upon God's Revealed will, for we do not know God's Secret Decrees.

and again, more plainly, Calvin writes:

"[T]he will of God as mentioned here must be judged by the result. Seeing that in His Word He calls all alike to salvation, and this is the object of preaching, that all should take refuge in His faith and protection, it is right to say that He wishes all to gather to Him. Now the nature of the Word shows us that here there is no description of the secret counsel of God (arcanum Dei consilium)—just His wishes. Certainly those whom He wishes effectively to gather, He draws inwardly by His Spirit, and calls them not merely by man‟s outward voice. If anyone objects that it is absurd to split God‟s will (duplicem in Deo voluntatem fingi), I answer that this is exactly our belief, that His will is one and undivided: but because our minds cannot plumb the profound depths of His secret election (ad profundam acranae electionis abyssum) to suit our infirmity, the will of God is set before us as double (bifariam)."

---Calvin, Comm. Matt. 23:37 [1555], CNTC, 69.

Regarding Matthew 23:37

I am not sure Calvin is right here. First of all, Jesus addresses this to "Jerusalem" - the question is: who is he referring to? This passage mentions nothing of each individual person. In fact, it speaks of "Jerusalem" resisting Christ's gathering of her (Jerusalem's) children. So is Jesus talking here of all individual people in Jerusalem or is he addressing this to the religious elite? It seems as though this is similar to the parable of the tenants.

http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40223

Just some food for thought.
 
I think Ruben has gives helpful wisdom against quote wars. Certainly there are great minds on both sides of the debate.

For my part, I'm trying to stick to scriptures rather than prove that some strong men agree with me. I can't help but think having a scripture-based discussion is the best way forward.

:2cents:
 
INDEFINITELY

The problem is, I've never met an indefinite sinner. I've only met actual sinners. We should be careful not to use words that have no meaning.

Additionally, there are many passages where God Himself pleads with sinners who do not repent. He gives time for those to repent even knowing that they never will. These are definite people who are addressed by God. There is nothing indefinite about them. If our system of doctrine cannot account for all biblical data, we have not used "all scripture" for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16).
 
For my part, I'm trying to stick to scriptures rather than prove that some strong men agree with me. I can't help but think having a scripture-based discussion is the best way forward.

:2cents:
Sometimes in discussions we need to do more than quote Scripture to be helpful. As Reformed we are not Biblicist and we use other sciences/sources to help explain the Sriptural data. The bottom line is that to say God gives a well meant offer and wants all to be saved, including Reprobates is to posit Two wills in God. It makes God one who has unfulfilled desires. That is impossible. All that God desires comes to pass.
The Lord Almighty has sworn,
“Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will happen. Isaiah 14:24
 
In the end, it is important for both sides to agree that the gospel should be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. God's ultimate purpose in that proclamation for each individual (salvation vs. hardening) can never be known so we do not try to discern that.

The question of God's attitude or disposition towards each individual person at any given moment is the only thing we can really debate.

As for any evangelist - I think it is safest to simply evangelize as we see in scripture. Call people to repentance - talk about God's mercy, his promise of salvation to all who will believe and all who will come. Getting into God's "feelings" toward any specific person is not wise, in my opinion. But of course, we can talk about it in a scriptural way if we are careful.

We can say, from scripture that God's soul hates the sinner (Psalm 11).

We can also say, from scripture that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18).

These two things are not contradictory - the passage in Ezekiel, as far as I can tell, is simply telling what God has pleasure in, and what he doesn't. It's like when you are cleaning the house to prepare for guests - you don't particularly take "pleasure" in cleaning the house, but it must be done in order to prepare the house for the guests. Do you take pleasure in cleaning the house? No. Do you desire to clean the house? Yes - it is necessary.

The same is true with a judge - does a judge get "pleasure" in sentencing someone to life in prison - do they get their kicks from condemning someone to prison for life? No - probably not, but they do take pleasure in meting out justice. Does he take pleasure in throwing a man in jail? No - but it must be done, and the judge desires to do it.

I just want to also recognize that this is a sensitive issue and this deals with real people with real souls, and real eternal destinies. So let's be gracious and kind.
 
I think Ruben has gives helpful wisdom against quote wars. Certainly there are great minds on both sides of the debate.

For my part, I'm trying to stick to scriptures rather than prove that some strong men agree with me. I can't help but think having a scripture-based discussion is the best way forward.

:2cents:

Three observations about that, Tim (and thank you for the kind words). 1) It's not just that there are great minds on both sides; it's that some great minds are appealed to by both sides as definitely lining up with them. 2) It would probably be easier to take a text or series of texts and discuss them on a different thread, where hopefully greater focus would be allowed. 3) Any discussion of texts inevitably includes a discussion of hermeneutical principles, perhaps in this case particularly the issue of anthropopathisms.

Now on that score, in my view, it does not help the discussion when people's statements seem to indicate that they view the category of anthropopathism as intrinsically a way to dismiss a text. Of course it can be used in such a way, but that is not its proper purpose or function.

But that then gets you back from the issue of hermeneutics to the issue of classical Christian theism, under assault in so many ways in the current day. Teasing out those inter-related strands is no simple matter, but one of the reasons the discussions don't progress is because it frequently bounces from one of these three areas to another, with no consensus established on any of them, sadly.
 
Rich, we have so many examples of the all-knowing God demonstrating the patience you call Christians to (Rev. 2:21 says He gives them time to repent, though they would not). I feel as if you are glossing what God reveals about his own character in relation to the lost while suggesting that I am prying into God's unsearchable nature and "coming up with this" on my own apart from revelation. God reveals to us His disposition towards sinners even when He knows they will reject Him. Is it our system that is muddying the waters?

Again, I think we largely agree, but I'm having difficulty understanding why there are issues talking about God's disposition towards the lost when He reveals His disposition concerning the lost...

The difficulty is not exegetical but more broadly theological. You assume that your system of doctrine is not in your way of properly conceiving what is a difficult issue - namely, trying to sort out what is a very difficult issue for men to apprehend.

I read through the entire Scriptures every year (more really as I often use the M'Cheyne reading plan. I'm very familiar with God's revealed compassion as wel as the revelation of all his other attributes.

I suppose it depends upon what desires to focus upon because, if we really try to press some of the language too hard we can come to the conclusion that God has a divided mind on an issue or (like some) that he really don't know the future or any other number of things.

I don't know how often you read the prophets but, if we are just to "count verses", it actually seems like God is going to destroy His people and that they have totally blown it and that they're going to get their just desert but then He suddenly "breaks" and starts saying things like: "How could I ever judge you, I taught you to walk by holding up your arms..."

We could conclude that God is an awful like us - parents so mad at our children that we want to ring their necks and then sort of "cool off" and realize that we would be devestated if anything ever happend to them.

We also need to put a lot of Biblical language into perspective that God is largley addressing people in the Covenant of Grace under the dispensation of Moses and David. It's why people also argue about whether it's a true administration of the CoG because of the seeming "you keep it or you die" and other ways in which God seems more judgmental and less yielding but we could also view this as "discipline" vs "punishment".

I personally find it to be a fruitless query to base my concern for sinners in some sort of "cumulative display of compassion" by God and conclude that His concern for all the lost (for all eternity) is of a certain character. If I'm commanded to determine God's "true disposition", from all eternity, based on His revealed will for all men then I'd need to consider all the other things that are revealed. He has compassion but also wants to utterly destroy them and He's even telling the glorified saints: don't worry I'm going to crush them. This is a recipe for actually conceiving of God not as simple but as the creature. It's not clear to me why you choose to "camp out" on compassion alone if that is your motivation on how you view the lost if you're taking in all Revelation.

So then we actually get to the Gospel - which is under the Mediation of Christ. Scripture reveals that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn because the world was already condemned.

Condemned by Whom? Not Satan or not by ourselves as some will conclude because they only want to conclude that all of what is revealed of God's disposition is only compassion or concern. The world was condemned by God.

But the ministry of the Covenant of Grace - the ministry of the Gospel - is the Revelation of forgiveness in the full view of the wrath of God for sinners. It is a message of reconciliation. It is the CoG that reveals the love of God and not us considering God's disposition abstractly based on every Scripture where we conclude some "overriding" disposition toward the wicked. It is only in the Gospel revealed that the compassion of God to sinners is revealed and that is what we herald. What we understand of God in the Gospel is Christ revealed and not our conception of God as more broadly conceived from Scripture.
 
Perhaps think of it this way. It is an act of compassion to offer Christ to sinners, both on our part and God's. But the compassion is measured. The way you explain God's love is to explain all the benefits believers experience when they are united to Christ and adopted into God's family. Explain the full feast of blessing and love to any kind of sinner who comes. But there is no assurance of such love from God if you remain outside the house. Yes, God is kind to the unthankful, and gives good gifts to his creatures, and is patient and long-suffering while extending the offer of pardon, but there is no assurance of safety from such blessings to lost sinners. Just because God is kind does not mean he will fail to judge. Until you come to Christ, the only guarantee you have from God is judgment against your sin. So the stress upon God's love in the offer should not be speculating what God's feelings are while the offer is made, but instead "look at how God pours out his love to ANY sinner who comes; look at how Christ answers every true need of the sinner; and he has promised that this too can be yours IF you come." The assurance of God's love comes only through faith. You cannot ever hope to enjoy it without faith. If you continue to reject Christ, the best you can enjoy from God is kind treatment on your way to the execution.

Again, this is focusing on how the offer is made on our level. It's not dealing with God's secret purposes which he accomplishes through our activity.
 
Well noted Patrick.

The problem I have with the notion of conceiving of God's attitude toward the lost as a cumulative case of Revelation is that the sphere in which we encounter God's mercy is in the Gospel and in the ministry of Christ. It's not as we consider all the actions of God toward sinners - because He does judge sinners with great fury.

But it is in the ministry of the Gospel that God's patience and kindness toward sinners is revealed in tangible, historical ways.

Consider my tagline - 2 Tim 2:24-25. What is the motivation that Paul enjoins upon us for compassion toward sinners? Is it God's generic compassion toward sinners? No, it is rooted first that we once walked in darkness of thinking (hence we understand what it is to be fuitle in our thinking) and that God might grant them repentance. It is in the notion that Today is that day when God's offer of salvation is present.

We really need to be careful here to divorce God's compassion from the grace of the Gospel - the work of Christ - because it otherwise causes a division within God. He is just and justifier in Christ. The compassion toward sinners and the offer of salvation comes only because the Son has redeemed people from the curse of God. Step outside the "boundary" of the offer of the Gospel - the work of Christ - and you are under wrath. There is no hpe of a man to think of God as kindly disposed toward him as a sinner apart from the work of Christ on the Cross. He only has the expectation of wrath.

To conceive of the Revelation of God as having a compassionate disposition toward sinners as just a general rule actually undermines the very substrate of the Covenant of Grace. The very reason why judgment is forestalled is not a generic compassion of God toward the lost but a forestallment on the grounds of the work of Christ proleptically in the garden but now seen in full view.

We preach Christ and Him crucified for sinners and not God's generic compassion for sinners.
 
One way in which God's general compassion and common grace can be enlisted for evangelism is as follows:

In the writings of many of the Puritans and especially Jonathan Edwards, he often reminds the hearer that it is only by the mere mercy of God that the hearer has not already dropped into hell. God's compassion is upholding them and preventing their immediate judgment. We read this theme time and again. It is God's mere compassion which prevents every sinner from slipping into hell in the very next moment. See the mercy of God and close now and embrace that gracious God through the work of Jesus Christ.

The disposition of God is holy and desires holiness. Therefore, God's disposition delights in all of His Creation glorifying God. God's Dispositional Will is that all creatures will glorify God. God then reveals the same thing in His Revealed Will, that He desires all who hear to come and repent. But for reasons of higher glory, God ordains things that are contrary to His holy Dispositions to occur and which do not conform to His Revealed Will and so not all sinners are elected.

Again, we may deny that God's has a two-fold aspect to His will, but it is plain in Scripture. We being humans cannot fully understand God and so we cannot see how God is said to allow some things which He states plainly are displeasing to him, but plenty of examples abound in Scripture.

Though we cannot ascertain God's Decretive will, we are given plenty of Scriptures to show God's Disposition and His Revealed Will. These things are analogical, but not untrue. The ectypal is a faithful copy of the archetypal. God's disposition is to desire holiness in all of His Creation, and His Revealed Will states the same thing. He tells us plainly that He prefers sinners to turn, even though He stands ready to punish sinners.

Love and hate in God are in God both in different ways. Strictly speaking wrath is not an attribute of God if we define attribute as God in Himself. Wrath is displayed in relation to His creation and is a result of His holiness. But love is more basic and is within God even before the Creation.

Sinclair Ferguson explains it thusly:

“Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God. For something to be an attribute of God, it has to be something that God exercises before all worlds. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of the sinfulness of man. So, within the Trinitarian relationship, that holiness is expressed among the members of the Trinity, but not wrath.”

Whatever is not expressed between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit within the Trinity before Creation is NOT an attribute of God under this strict definition. Thus wrath and anger derive from Holiness and are not "in" God the same way that love is in God. We are told that God is love, but we are never told that God is hate. He is wrathful due to a fallen creation.

Therefore, it is not as simple as saying that either God either loves or that He absolutely hates a sinner...100% ...totally...end of story. God loves all of His creation, and especially men who are made in His image, and especially the elect (the 3-fold love of God). But due to sin, He judges some of those men that He loves and thus places them under judicial hatred despite His creaturely love towards them. With this in mind, we can see that God's compassion and love are universal in some respects, though His decretive will to save is not universal due to human sin.

You might say it makes no difference to speak of God's general compassion because it does not save anyone, but only God's special electing love saves the elect. But this doctrine of common grace and general beneficence DOES, indeed, make a difference in how we view God and how we view other souls. We are to be imitators of Christ, who loved souls, and He was the perfect image of God upon the earth - and so we may conclude that we are to have compassion upon the souls of men and desire the salvation of all as well, because Christ and God have compassion upon all.

I believe our view of the love and compassion of God is linked closely to the intensity and manner by which we ourselves evangelize.

We don't throw the gospel out there indifferently and say "Take it or leave it, because God has elected some of you and reprobated others from eternity past anyway." NO, We beseech (beg) sinners and show the mercy and compasson of God. Judgment awaits and yet God has graciously provided a way of escape due to His love.

The doctrine of the love of God warms our heart towards the world. I believe our love of souls is related to how we view God loving all souls.

When a sinner repents, the Bible doesn't say, "Most of heaven rejoices but God sits silent as a stoic and is inidfferent" but rather that all of heaven rejoices over every sinner who repents. If God is said to take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, we must somehow believe that, in some analogical manner, God takes pleasure in every sinner saved. His Disposition and His Revealed Will desire it.

Unless of course we accuse all of heaven of having "mood swings" or being "emotionally unstable" by rejoicing when one sinner repents. God has chosen to reveal heaven's response in such a way, and so I am not ashamed of it. I believe there is joy in heaven over every sinner who repents. God wants it and is glad for it. It is pleasing to both His Disposition as well as in Conformity to His Revealed Will.
 
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Does the doctrine of the Sincere or Well-meant Offer of the Gospel lead us to conclude that God has unfulfilled desires?:

-The problem with this question is that it confuses God's Disposition and Revealed Will with his Decretive Will.

Every jot and tittle of God's Decretive Will comes to pass. There is not any unfulfilled Decree in God.

Regarding His Revealed Will and precept, however, there are plenty of Scriptures which tell us that people have grieved the Spirit, resisted the Spirit, or have not done as God has told us that He desires. Is this an unfulfilled desire or not? Not in light of God's decrees, but yes in light of God's precepts. All of God's eternal decrees will come to pass precisely as decreed, and yet human rebellion and grieving the Spirit and disobeying God's precepts are all contained within those decrees.

Therefore, this common objection against the WMO is a silly one.
 
Perg,

It's really hard to interact with what you write because you're sort of all over the map with respect to the way you argue. You'll take a quote that relates to God's general care for creation and then extend that into the reason why He shows mercy with respect to the Covenant of Grace. You'll make general observations about a love for His creation and then use the parable of the lost sheep, coin, and son to tie those issues to "general benevolence".

It's really difficult to take the sting of argumentation very coherently.

Do you really believe that the basis for a sinner to draw near to Christ is on the basis that God has a "creaturely love" for him? Is that the hope that you re extending in the Gospel to Him?

Are the attributes of God as holy, just, loving, simple, etc the basis by which we apprehend His power to save when we are considering the lost?

It just doesn't have any real traction for me. Maybe it all connects in your mind in a way I can't understand but it does not make any sense to me how you move from general benevolence and "common grace" to what is actually offered in the Gospel itself to sinners. I'm not offering to sinners the idea that God has a general love or care for all creation but that His mercy is extended now unto them if they would believe. I believe in the power of God for salvation as it is found in Christ.

I also don't believe there is any real fruition or knowledge of God apart from Covenant and, more specifically, the Mediator, which is Christ. I think there are certain theological topics that are necessary in order for us to know who God is from a theological perspective but much of our confession of God is by way of negation and limited by our creaturely capacity to speak of Him. Athanasius and the early Church fathers and all Christians hence have always seen our fruition of God being bound up in Christ becoming Man and being the Mediator between God and Man.

I simply cannot conceive of my knowledge of God apart from the Son. I can't conceive of God's intention toward man in some abstract fashion of benevolence but would rather conceive of it through the Son as He has died for sinners and bids all to come to Him. That's the ministry to which I am not Mediator but only one who holds Him forth.

It's been made a lot of that the idea of this offer is "indefinite" but that's not indefinite in the idea that God "doesn't really care" or that it's somehow "faceless". In fact, the bare notion that God is merely benevolent toward all as a general rule of His "care for creatures" is (to my thinking) quite sterile and useless to me as a preacher. There's no "power to save" in a general benevolence. I'm not willing to lay down my life for a general benevolence. I am able to see all men as sinners to whom the offer of salvation goes out.

Somebody wrote here that "we know this person was reprobate". Really? I've never met a person that I knew that about. I only have met sinners. I've only met people to whom the power of God for salvation is extended: Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.
 
Perg,

It's really hard to interact with what you write because you're sort of all over the map with respect to the way you argue. You'll take a quote that relates to God's general care for creation and then extend that into the reason why He shows mercy with respect to the Covenant of Grace. You'll make general observations about a love for His creation and then use the parable of the lost sheep, coin, and son to tie those issues to "general benevolence".

It's really difficult to take the sting of argumentation very coherently.

Do you really believe that the basis for a sinner to draw near to Christ is on the basis that God has a "creaturely love" for him? Is that the hope that you re extending in the Gospel to Him?

Are the attributes of God as holy, just, loving, simple, etc the basis by which we apprehend His power to save when we are considering the lost?

It just doesn't have any real traction for me. Maybe it all connects in your mind in a way I can't understand but it does not make any sense to me how you move from general benevolence and "common grace" to what is actually offered in the Gospel itself to sinners. I'm not offering to sinners the idea that God has a general love or care for all creation but that His mercy is extended now unto them if they would believe. I believe in the power of God for salvation as it is found in Christ.

I also don't believe there is any real fruition or knowledge of God apart from Covenant and, more specifically, the Mediator, which is Christ. I think there are certain theological topics that are necessary in order for us to know who God is from a theological perspective but much of our confession of God is by way of negation and limited by our creaturely capacity to speak of Him. Athanasius and the early Church fathers and all Christians hence have always seen our fruition of God being bound up in Christ becoming Man and being the Mediator between God and Man.

I simply cannot conceive of my knowledge of God apart from the Son. I can't conceive of God's intention toward man in some abstract fashion of benevolence but would rather conceive of it through the Son as He has died for sinners and bids all to come to Him. That's the ministry to which I am not Mediator but only one who holds Him forth.

It's been made a lot of that the idea of this offer is "indefinite" but that's not indefinite in the idea that God "doesn't really care" or that it's somehow "faceless". In fact, the bare notion that God is merely benevolent toward all as a general rule of His "care for creatures" is (to my thinking) quite sterile and useless to me as a preacher. There's no "power to save" in a general benevolence. I'm not willing to lay down my life for a general benevolence. I am able to see all men as sinners to whom the offer of salvation goes out.

Somebody wrote here that "we know this person was reprobate". Really? I've never met a person that I knew that about. I only have met sinners. I've only met people to whom the power of God for salvation is extended: Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

I will try to make it more simple then:

We don't offer God's general beneficence. We offer Christ.

But why do we offer Christ? Is it merely because it is our duty? No. We love mankind because God loves mankind. We desire sinners to be saved because God desires sinners to be saved. Our Saviour on earth was a perfect model and we are imitators of him when we desire all who hear to come. When God says Come it is an invitation, a sincere one, and so we are to give a sincere invitation. God is pleased to save. We are not saying that God has changing emotion, yet God's Word shows a preference that sinners turn from their ways. Thus I am free to tell sinners that God desires them to turn from their ways...any sinner.

Speaking to any sinner I may tell him that God desires His salvation and would be pleased to do it.

The WMO and Commmon grace connect because those High Calvinists who reject the WMO also usually reject Common Grace. The WMO and Common Grace connect to our own evangelistic zeal because, while a command to repent is good, a mere command without a sincere desire falls short.

I mention common grace and God's general love to all mankind because it is a complete packet with the WMO...these 3 doctrines cluster together. Those who believe the WMO also believe in common grace and God's general common love for all humanity. Those who reject the WMO often reject common grace and claim that God has no love at all for the reprobate. I believe they are wrong on all 3 related topics. Those who reject all 3 doctrines also have an inferior history of missions (though I am sure some on the PB can mention a scattered missionary here or there representing the High Calvinists, in general it dampens missionary zeal).

I may buy my wife roses out of mere duty and give them to her because it is my job; but it is much better if I buy her roses and give them to her as a sincere offer of my love. Historically we've seen the High Calvinists less involved in missions and evangelism and this is just what we would expect from the doctrine. The warmth of God's love for humanity warms our love to go out to all mankind with the Gospel.

To every human being that we meet with the Gospel we may say, "God desires your salvation."
 
In the administration of the covenant of grace, via the promiscuous preaching of the command for all to believe and the promise of salvation of all that do so, I would affirm that this fee offer of salvation to all who believe in Our Lord is sincerely offered by God. The condition of that offer, faith, is a vital component in that sincerity.

When the words "well-meant offer" (versus "free offer") are used, I have to pause and wonder what exactly is being claimed.

Is "well-meant" the claim that God desires universally all to be saved, yet apparently is withholding the means for all to be saved? Does God really have any unfulfilled desires? I am all in when "well-meant offer" means a genuinely sincere offer is made in the Gospel, but I have to quibble with a view that "well-meant" implies God has unfulfilled desires.
 
I will try to make it more simple then:

We don't offer God's general beneficence. We offer Christ.

But why do we offer Christ? Is it merely because it is our duty? No. We love mankind because God loves mankind. We desire sinners to be saved because God desires sinners to be saved. Our Saviour on earth was a perfect model and we are imitators of him when we desire all who hear to come. When God says Come it is an invitation, a sincere one, and so we are to give a sincere invitation. God is pleased to save. We are not saying that God has changing emotion, yet God's Word shows a preference that sinners turn from their ways. Thus I am free to tell sinners that God desires them to turn from their ways...any sinner.

Speaking to any sinner I may tell him that God desires His salvation and would be pleased to do it.

The WMO and Commmon grace connect because those High Calvinists who reject the WMO also usually reject Common Grace. The WMO and Common Grace connect to our own evangelistic zeal because, while a command to repent is good, a mere command without a sincere desire falls short.

I mention common grace and God's general love to all mankind because it is a complete packet with the WMO...these 3 doctrines cluster together. Those who believe the WMO also believe in common grace and God's general common love for all humanity. Those who reject the WMO often reject common grace and claim that God has no love at all for the reprobate. I believe they are wrong on all 3 related topics. Those who reject all 3 doctrines also have an inferior history of missions (though I am sure some on the PB can mention a scattered missionary here or there representing the High Calvinists, in general it dampens missionary zeal).

I may buy my wife roses out of mere duty and give them to her because it is my job; but it is much better if I buy her roses and give them to her as a sincere offer of my love. Historically we've seen the High Calvinists less involved in missions and evangelism and this is just what we would expect from the doctrine. The warmth of God's love for humanity warms our love to go out to all mankind with the Gospel.

To every human being that we meet with the Gospel we may say, "God desires your salvation."
Again, it's difficult to untangle what you write because it's hard to argue against the idea of love for neighbor or the fact that we desire/rejoice in all sinners coming to Christ but you're still, unwittingly, importing categories of their election/reprobation into the manner in which you argue for this.

I don't know my neighbor as reprobate or elect but as neighbor - as created int he image of God. I don't love sinners as reprobate or elect but as sinners.

I also think that it is problematic when we simply consider the matter of "common grace" with respect to God's love for mankind whenever the ministry of the Gospel comes forward.

It's the reason I have a problem with those whoattach to the Gospel some notion of "spcial justice". It's not that God's benevelonce to His creation is a "problem" taken by itself. We ought to love our fellow man and be concerned for injustice in society (that doesn't require the modern forms of the term "social ustice"). The point is that love of neighber is commanded because, yes, men and women are created in the image of God. Call it common grace if you like but God's image is borne by mankind and so he does remarkable things and we are to love in our fellow man the image of God. It is twisted and corrupted and mankind slaps God's face with the glory of the image but it is, nevertheless, an object that we ought to love and a kind of care and regard for His image is commanded by God.

But the Gospel is not in the "realm" of us keeping the law. The minister is not an agent of reminding us all of "neighbor love" and our failures/successes to do so. The minister is not a herald of God's "common grace" or regard for His image bearers.

Those image bearers, though an object of concern by their Creator, are also under His wrath because they are not thankful to Him and they are idolatrous. It is the very kindness of God toward His creation that mankind denies and we need not cast our kindness toward our fellow man off but the Gospel deals with the issue of the enmity between God and man that has been created by us who supress the knowledge of God.

When the Gospel goes forth it goes forth as if the sinner, guilty for his lack of love toard God and neighbor, has entered into a realm in which God is holding forth not a bare "I love my image" love but holding forth His very Son crucified on a cross for sin. In this place He bids the sinner be reconciled not merely with a general benevolence but the offer of forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

If I may put it another way, what we have for our neighbors is a love that reflects God's love for His image - even if fallen - we still love and care for it.

But, in the Gospel, our concern and love for sinners intensifies because the object being offered is the love of God shown in the giving of His Son. It is more intense, more glorious, more restorative, more unimaginably brilliant than any love we might be able to muster toward other creatures on the basis of our love for them as image bearers.

This is what I believe the "free offer" holds forth to be distinguished from an important (but lesser) love of image or common grace. When the minister preaches and the Gospel is preached then the very Son of God is held forth and we plead with men as if for God, be reconciled to God.

I really could care less about high Calvinism vs low Calvinism debates. I just want to see the Gospel understood not as a place for "social justice" (the love of neighbor) but the placarding of Christ (the love of God toward sinners).
 
Sometimes in discussions we need to do more than quote Scripture to be helpful. As Reformed we are not Biblicist and we use other sciences/sources to help explain the Sriptural data.

I agree. I'm only saying that sending long quotes usually only proves that we believe someone agrees with our position. Certainly I would expect to use language that accounts for Reformed scholarship.

The bottom line is that to say God gives a well meant offer and wants all to be saved, including Reprobates is to posit Two wills in God. It makes God one who has unfulfilled desires. That is impossible. All that God desires comes to pass.
The Lord Almighty has sworn,
“Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will happen. Isaiah 14:24

The WMO does not deny Is. 14:24. Also, the idea that God desires the salvation of the reprobate is not exactly accurate. Reprobation proceeds from God's secret decree. This conversation concerns God's revealed will and it is better to not conflate the two.

It's one thing to say that God desires the salvation of those who He secretly decrees are reprobate. It is another thing entirely to say that God desires the salvation of the reprobate. This conflates two carefully defined doctrines.
 
I think one problem is that many (all?) of the Scriptures used as proof texts for God desiring the salvation of the reprobate/ wicked are actually God speaking to or about his straying covenant people. Even the one often quoted from 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul’s beseeching that they would be reconciled to God, is addressed to church members. I’m not saying non-church members shouldn’t be appealed to to repent and believe, they should. But looking carefully at each text comports with Reuben’s suggestion earlier that these conversations should focus on specific texts.
 
It’s not High Calvinism to reject the well meant offer. High Calvinism rejects the free offer
Why do high Calvinists reject the free offer? What is it about the free offer that high calvinists take issue with? Does this also have to do with limited atonement, and if so, is that an extension of an issue with the ‘WMO’ due to God’s elective decree? It appears they take legitimate issue with the WMO to an extreme that affects the urgency of the mandate related to the free offer.....
 
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