Ergun caner guilty: Removed as dean from seminary

[Curt]

As pastor of a Baptist congregation, whose heart and theological understanding is still presbyterian, oh how I yearn for meaningful connectionalism.

Curt, then why are you a Baptist?

I'm not. I'm just the pastor of this reforming Baptist congregation.

 

[Herald]

As pastor of a Baptist congregation, whose heart and theological understanding is still presbyterian, oh how I yearn for meaningful connectionalism.

Curt, then why are you a Baptist?

I'm not. I'm just the pastor of this reforming Baptist congregation.

Interesting.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

As pastor of a Baptist congregation, whose heart and theological understanding is still presbyterian, oh how I yearn for meaningful connectionalism.

Curt, then why are you a Baptist?

I'm not. I'm just the pastor of this reforming Baptist congregation.

Is the Baptist church you pastor aware that their pastor isn't a Baptist?

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Putting the school's action aside, I'm just shocked that the utter shame of Caner's sin isn't enough to drive him to resign and drop off the face of the earth! That's some real gumption!

 

[Curt]

As pastor of a Baptist congregation, whose heart and theological understanding is still presbyterian, oh how I yearn for meaningful connectionalism.

Curt, then why are you a Baptist?

I'm not. I'm just the pastor of this reforming Baptist congregation.

Is the Baptist church you pastor aware that their pastor isn't a Baptist?

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Putting the school's action aside, I'm just shocked that the utter shame of Caner's sin isn't enough to drive him to resign and drop off the face of the earth! That's some real gumption!

There has never been any confusion on that point. I have always been upfront and have never preached or taught on infant baptism. The congregation (currently) seems content with my beliefs and my efforts.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Don't turn this into a Baptism thread. I am sending Pastor Curt a note I think Bill would appreciate. But this is not about baptism.

 

[Jared]

Isn't this Caner fellow the one and same who said about 3 years ago that Calvinists were actually a greater threat to Christianity than Muslims? I think he said something to that effect about the same time that Jerry Falwell pronounced Calvinism to be a heresy to a group of visiting prospective students, about three weeks prior to his death.

That wouldn't be something I'd want to say right before I died.

 

[Herald]

Ergun Caner is definitely a rabid anti-Calvinist. Liberty is of the same genre as the bible college I first attended - Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, NY. Word of Life was decidedly anti-Calvinist. In fact, their catalog stated that if you hold to Calvinism, Reformed, or "Replacement" theology you would be best served by not applying for admission. Calvinists were regarded, as at best, misguided and, at worse, as heretics. John MacArthur was one of the most highly respected adjunct faculty members at Word of Life, but when he came out with the Gospel According to Jesus in 1989, that all changed. The Lordship Salvation position of John MacArthur caused him to be blacklisted at Word of Life. In fact, I attended the last appearance by John MacArthur at Word of Life just before the publication of his book. I can only imagine the fundamentalist reaction when MacArthur clearly articulated that he was a Calvinist.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Ergun Caner is definitely a rabid anti-Calvinist. Liberty is of the same genre as the bible college I first attended - Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, NY. Word of Life was decidedly anti-Calvinist. In fact, their catalog stated that if you hold to Calvinism, Reformed, or "Replacement" theology you would be best served by not applying for admission. Calvinists were regarded, as at best, misguided and, at worse, as heretics. John MacArthur was one of the most highly respected adjunct faculty members at Word of Life, but when he came out with the Gospel According to Jesus in 1989, that all changed. The Lordship Salvation position of John MacArthur caused him to be blacklisted at Word of Life. In fact, I attended the last appearance by John MacArthur at Word of Life just before the publication of his book. I can only imagine the fundamentalist reaction when MacArthur clearly articulated that he was a Calvinist.

Liberty itself can't be that anti-Calvinistic. Dr. Roger Schultz, their Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, is a rabid Calvinist and a Presbyterian to boot. I've known other Calvinists that have worked at the school. I think Caner is a useful pawn in the hands of certain rabid anti-Calvinists within the SBC, but Liberty is not an SBC school. Neither is Thomas Road BC an SBC congregation. (Which raises an interesting quesiton: Does anyone known for sure which church actually holds his membership?)

I would place Liberty and, say, Bob Jones University, in different categories.

 

[Herald]

Tom,

I'm aware of Dr. Schultz, but he is an anomaly at Liberty. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful Dr. Schultz is there, but he does not represent the prevailing theological bent of the University.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Bill,

I wasn't suggesting that LU was pro-Calvinist. But it's my impression that Caner is the anomaly, a useful pawn of the anti-Reformed forces in the SBC. But if LU were rabidly anti- they could not afford to have someone like Dr. Schultz as a dean, in my opinion.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Liberty itself can't be that anti-Calvinistic. Dr. Roger Schultz, their Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, is a rabid Calvinist and a Presbyterian to boot. I've known other Calvinists that have worked at the school. I think Caner is a useful pawn in the hands of certain rabid anti-Calvinists within the SBC, but Liberty is not an SBC school. Neither is Thomas Road BC an SBC congregation. (Which raises an interesting quesiton: Does anyone known for sure which church actually holds his membership?)

I would place Liberty and, say, Bob Jones University, in different categories.

Liberty is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Thomas Road is a Southern Baptist Church Congregation.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Liberty is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

Liberty is not an institution nor under the oversight of the SBC. They may have a friendly relationship, but the SBC only has six schools (SBTS, SEBTS, SWBTS, NOBTS, MBTS, GGBTS).

 

[tcalbrecht]

Liberty itself can't be that anti-Calvinistic. Dr. Roger Schultz, their Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, is a rabid Calvinist and a Presbyterian to boot. I've known other Calvinists that have worked at the school. I think Caner is a useful pawn in the hands of certain rabid anti-Calvinists within the SBC, but Liberty is not an SBC school. Neither is Thomas Road BC an SBC congregation. (Which raises an interesting quesiton: Does anyone known for sure which church actually holds his membership?)

I would place Liberty and, say, Bob Jones University, in different categories.

Liberty is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Thomas Road is a Southern Baptist Church Congregation.

Sorry, I guess I was working from old data. When did they align with the SBC?

 

[BlackCalvinist]

Looks like 3 years in jail in Turkey.
penalty for conversion to christianity turkey - Google Search

 

[TimV]

The linked article says

Citing articles 301, 216 and 135 of the Turkish penal code, the indictment accuses the defendants of approaching grade school children and high school students in Silivri and attempting to convert them to Christianity, Compass reported.

According to the written charges, the three plaintiffs, identified as 23-year-old Fatih Kose, 16-year-old Alper and Oguz, 17, claimed the two Christians had called Islam a “primitive and fabricated religion” and had described Turks as a “cursed people,” Compass reported.

They also accused Tastan and Topal of opposing the Turkish military, encouraging sexual misconduct and procuring funds from abroad to entice young people in Silivri to become Christians. Tastan and Topal deny all charges, Compass reported.

and

“but I am doing missionary work. I am a Christian evangelist and I don’t deny that. So you can put me in jail for that, if you want. But you know what I’m doing is not against the law.”

Turkey recently gave up the death penalty to get into the EU, and has been a member of NATO for years. I would be surprised if converts were subjected to punishment just for converting. Not that I'd want to live there....

 

[Herald]

I thought he was Todd Bentley in a suit for the 7 or 8 highly dramatic clips of his preaching that I saw. Didn't see anything about conviction of sin, repentance, trust in Jesus and a walk in piety at all. Just looked like a rock and roll circus fiasco.

Does the "community" now apologize to the main antagonist from that other religion who led the charge here?

Great example set there for someone who needs Jesus, like we all do.

I am no Ergun Caner fan, but let's be careful not to try him in the court of YouTube.

 

[Herald]

I've been following the whole Ergun Caner debacle through the lens of James White. I'm now of the opinion that Liberty University's sin is far greater than Ergun Caner. Liberty could have reigned him in. They could have put an end to his using the clout and credibility of his seminary position. Instead they gave Caner a slap on the wrist. The rest of fundamentalist Christianity is coming to Caner's defense (Geisler leading the charge). They are now the power behind Caner's throne (small "t").

 

[torstar]

I thought he was Todd Bentley in a suit for the 7 or 8 highly dramatic clips of his preaching that I saw. Didn't see anything about conviction of sin, repentance, trust in Jesus and a walk in piety at all. Just looked like a rock and roll circus fiasco.

Does the "community" now apologize to the main antagonist from that other religion who led the charge here?

Great example set there for someone who needs Jesus, like we all do.

I am no Ergun Caner fan, but let's be careful not to try him in the court of YouTube.

Live by theatrics and exaggeration, die by them.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Liberty itself can't be that anti-Calvinistic. Dr. Roger Schultz, their Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, is a rabid Calvinist and a Presbyterian to boot. I've known other Calvinists that have worked at the school. I think Caner is a useful pawn in the hands of certain rabid anti-Calvinists within the SBC, but Liberty is not an SBC school. Neither is Thomas Road BC an SBC congregation. (Which raises an interesting quesiton: Does anyone known for sure which church actually holds his membership?)

I would place Liberty and, say, Bob Jones University, in different categories.

Liberty is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Thomas Road is a Southern Baptist Church Congregation.

Sorry, I guess I was working from old data. When did they align with the SBC?

Well, I think I was wrong concerning the Southern Baptist Convention, Liberty University, and Thomas Road Baptist Church. I was taking my information from wikipedia and it evidently is not correct.

Thomas Road Baptist Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thomas Road Baptist Church was initially affiliated with the Baptist Bible Fellowship International, but is now dually aligned with that Fellowship as well as with the Southern Baptist Convention, having entered the convention by way of the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia.

And Liberty is listed as having an affiliation with the Southern Baptist Group.
Southern Baptist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pastor Schoen provided me with this information.

Southern Baptist Convention - Colleges and Universities

The Southern Baptist Convention lists the following colleges and universities as a service to Southern Baptists and the Baptist state conventions with which it maintains a cooperative relationship. With the exception of the five theological colleges associated with our SBC seminaries, the Southern Baptist Convention has no direct connection with any of these institutions. It provides no funding. It elects no trustees. Each institution is related to one of our partnering Baptist state conventions.

 

[JasonGoodwin]

Bill,

I wasn't suggesting that LU was pro-Calvinist. But it's my impression that Caner is the anomaly, a useful pawn of the anti-Reformed forces in the SBC. But if LU were rabidly anti- they could not afford to have someone like Dr. Schultz as a dean, in my opinion.

If I recall correctly, there are some profs at LU who lean toward being Reformed, if they are not outright Reformed. However, I think they are under different disciplines other than theological, meaning, that they might be IT profs or some other thing they specialize in that is in no way connected to the seminary.

 

[JasonGoodwin]

I've been following the whole Ergun Caner debacle through the lens of James White. I'm now of the opinion that Liberty University's sin is far greater than Ergun Caner. Liberty could have reigned him in. They could have put an end to his using the clout and credibility of his seminary position. Instead they gave Caner a slap on the wrist. The rest of fundamentalist Christianity is coming to Caner's defense (Geisler leading the charge). They are now the power behind Caner's throne (small "t").

Bill, here's the link to prove your point. Unfortunately, some of the comments left on there demonstrate that they will support, for lack of a better term, a "cult of personality" and not use sound judgment nor discernment.

As for what Liberty decided to do, this is just utterly tragic. I take no joy in this whatsoever.

 

[Justin Williams]

Bill,

I wasn't suggesting that LU was pro-Calvinist. But it's my impression that Caner is the anomaly, a useful pawn of the anti-Reformed forces in the SBC. But if LU were rabidly anti- they could not afford to have someone like Dr. Schultz as a dean, in my opinion.

I had the pleasure of taking one of Dr. Schultz's history courses my senior year (great teacher; absolutely loves history). I have to say that the reason he is allowed to be dean is because he is the dean of the College of Arts and Sciences where theological beliefs have no influence. I highly doubt that someone of Dr. Schultz's theological leaning would ever have the opportunity to chair any area within the religion department or seminary.

By the way, I have a nice graduation picture on my mantle of Dr. Schultz handing me my bachelor's degree in 2006.

Justin
LU Alum (who refuses to give a penny to his alma mater until they stop building idiotic things like the Snowflex and improves the library and language departments)

 

[Ivan]

Liberty Mountain Snowflex Centre

Wow!

 

[Grimmson]

For those of you who want a brief run down of the event in question regarding Caner, I would suggest the following link to a Washington Post article:

Liberty U. removing Ergun Caner as seminary dean over contradictory statements

 

[Andres]

Liberty Mountain Snowflex Centre

Wow!

They're open on the sabbath too.

 

[TxSpurgeon]

What will be most devastating about all of this is not Caner's lies, but the refusal of professing Christian "leaders" to call him to repentance (in course of discipline by his church, ideally) for his lies instead of glossing over them. Any person with any innate sense of morality (and every man born to woman has it written on his heart) can smell the deception a mile away. How telling it must be that not only have those in authority over Caner taken too long to address the matter, but they have essentially attempted to sweep it under the proverbial rug.

I agree completely. That is a testament to the shallowness of many churches within the SBC. One of the many reasons I left. Church discipline is un-heard of in many of them. Plus, politics are the order of the day in the SBC. Ergun Caner has always come off as a blow hard to me. Although I don't agree with his theology, I hope he repents. Praise to God, that He is leading me down a reformed path!

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I agree completely. That is a testament to the shallowness of many churches within the SBC. One of the many reasons I left. Church discipline is un-heard of in many of them. Plus, politics are the order of the day in the SBC. Ergun Caner has always come off as a blow hard to me. Although I don't agree with his theology, I hope he repents. Praise to God, that He is leading me down a reformed path!

Again, let's be clear, Liberty University is NOT a institution of the SBC. So no agency of the SBC had anything to do with puttin' Caner in office or takin' him out. I'm one of the SBC's toughest critics, but lets give credit where credit is due.

 

[Grimmson]

I agree completely. That is a testament to the shallowness of many churches within the SBC. One of the many reasons I left. Church discipline is un-heard of in many of them. Plus, politics are the order of the day in the SBC. Ergun Caner has always come off as a blow hard to me. Although I don't agree with his theology, I hope he repents. Praise to God, that He is leading me down a reformed path!

Again, let's be clear, Liberty University is NOT a institution of the SBC. So no agency of the SBC had anything to do with puttin' Caner in office or takin' him out. I'm one of the SBC's toughest critics, but lets give credit where credit is due.

First of all let us recognize that even though Liberty University is not an SBC intuition, it is still affiliated with the SBC by being “in partnership with the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia” (see Southern Baptist Convention - Colleges and Universities and Liberty University now linked to SBC ). Even though it is true that Caner was not given the position by an agency of the SBC, he was promoted there through the influence and friendly relations with high ranking leaders of the SBC. So like it or not, the controversy does directly affect the SBC because of that promoted influence. Liberty faculty (including trusties), some of which are involved with the SBC, did officially place him into and out of Caner’s position as president, but one cannot deny the lack of involvement publicly with Thomas Road Baptist Church that has ties to Liberty and is officially an SBC church. Thomas Road has not given any public statement of disciple, which I think is important for three reasons:

1) He lied in front of the pulpit publicly in SBC churches and there video present to prove that.
2) It has turned into a national public scandal giving a black eye to the SBC and Liberty University because of their promotions of Caner.
3) As Christians we should be more concerned with the truth and the truthfulness of our leaders then the politics of protecting big named people to protect our own identity. By doing so it will backfire against us and show there no difference between the church and the world and reinforce to the world that all the church wants is money and political power.

Which is why I call not only Caner to repentance, but also the leaders who support Caner publicly to repentance. If no discipline is willing to be given by the church (his church- Thomas Road Baptist Church), the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virgina as an association, and the SBC leadership then I would question not only the legitimacy of his church as a true church but also the associations that allow and promote him to speak in SBC churches. Therefore placing into question the legitimate existence of the SBC. If the SBC cannot be trusted with the truth for the protection of the people of God then how can we trust them to propagate the Gospel here in the U.S. and abroad? The double standard regarding the truth should never be allowed for any reason for any denomination. I would be saying the same thing if it was a PCA, PCUSA, or even URC. Therefore, pressure from within must be placed on Thomas Road to do something and for a retraction on that SBC Today article that exonerated him. So that the world can see that we as Christians stand for the truth in secret and in public.

I am sorry I keep beating that horse.

The SBC!

 

[Damon Rambo]

Ergun Caner is definitely a rabid anti-Calvinist. Liberty is of the same genre as the bible college I first attended - Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, NY. Word of Life was decidedly anti-Calvinist. In fact, their catalog stated that if you hold to Calvinism, Reformed, or "Replacement" theology you would be best served by not applying for admission. Calvinists were regarded, as at best, misguided and, at worse, as heretics. John MacArthur was one of the most highly respected adjunct faculty members at Word of Life, but when he came out with the Gospel According to Jesus in 1989, that all changed. The Lordship Salvation position of John MacArthur caused him to be blacklisted at Word of Life. In fact, I attended the last appearance by John MacArthur at Word of Life just before the publication of his book. I can only imagine the fundamentalist reaction when MacArthur clearly articulated that he was a Calvinist.

This is simply not true. Liberty is far from "Anti Calvinist." I am currently a student there, and thus far, I have taken classes from two very devout five pointers, and have met many, many "reformed" students. I have gotten into some good debates with some non-reformed students...but I have gotten just as many "amens." As far as the "Lordship" debate, all of Liberty's faculty, are required to reject "Free Grace" (or, "cheap grace") theology in order to teach there (the statement of faith rejects it), and Macarthur has been cited multiple times. One of the professors that I had was even an adjunct from the Master's Seminary.

FYI, One of Liberty's professors even appear on the "Amazing Grace" (History and Theology of Calvinism..)...attacking Arminian beliefs.

Liberty is very open, to all within historic orthodoxy. No one is attacked for there beliefs.

 

[Grimmson]

Ergun Caner is definitely a rabid anti-Calvinist. Liberty is of the same genre as the bible college I first attended - Word of Life Bible Institute in Pottersville, NY. Word of Life was decidedly anti-Calvinist. In fact, their catalog stated that if you hold to Calvinism, Reformed, or "Replacement" theology you would be best served by not applying for admission. Calvinists were regarded, as at best, misguided and, at worse, as heretics. John MacArthur was one of the most highly respected adjunct faculty members at Word of Life, but when he came out with the Gospel According to Jesus in 1989, that all changed. The Lordship Salvation position of John MacArthur caused him to be blacklisted at Word of Life. In fact, I attended the last appearance by John MacArthur at Word of Life just before the publication of his book. I can only imagine the fundamentalist reaction when MacArthur clearly articulated that he was a Calvinist.

This is simply not true. Liberty is far from "Anti Calvinist." I am currently a student there, and thus far, I have taken classes from two very devout five pointers, and have met many, many "reformed" students. I have gotten into some good debates with some non-reformed students...but I have gotten just as many "amens." As far as the "Lordship" debate, all of Liberty's faculty, are required to reject "Free Grace" (or, "cheap grace") theology in order to teach there (the statement of faith rejects it), and Macarthur has been cited multiple times. One of the professors that I had was even an adjunct from the Master's Seminary.

FYI, One of Liberty's professors even appear on the "Amazing Grace" (History and Theology of Calvinism..)...attacking Arminian beliefs.

Liberty is very open, to all within historic orthodoxy. No one is attacked for there beliefs.

Jerry Falwell gives the requirements of beliefs for Liberty and calls Calvinism heresy:
YouTube - Jerry Falwell Identifies Calvinism as Heresy

Liberty may not be anti-calvinism school now, but Caner sure is based on at least one sermon of his I heard from Thomas Road, I looked for it in my collection of sermons on another computer but I am sorry I cannot find it to show you. When Jerry Falwell was in charge, it seemed clear to me that he was not willing to promote or allow for Calvinistic teaching at his university. It may have changed, but I would like to see something official that supports that change and when that change took place.