Elect among the unreached

[OPC'n]

"The isolated person in the jungle, in your hypothetical case, WILL be saved by God if God has chosen to save him. God will either send someone or something to preach the Gospel to him but God is never limited in any means."

I'm not sure what you mean by "something" to preach the Gospel to him...can you elaborate? IAC, the jungle man heard the Gospel from someone before dying. That's my point.

 

[Prufrock]

Sarah,

I stated that he eventually heard the Gospel when he grew up.

.
What is the purpose of mentioning this. He either was regenerate from the womb or he wasn't. You can't say that he was regenerate based upon his future hearing of the gospel.

It does matter that those men were extraordinary...it happened to them only.

The burden of proof rests upon you here. Where in scripture can you assuredly claim that God will/cannot do this again?

First, this issue really only respects infants who die in infancy. Children of believers will not say that they mysteriously heard God preach to them the gospel -- as they grow, and become rational creatures, they hear it through the ordinary means. Such is the basis and foundation of their faith.

Those who die in infancy, however, have certainly never had this happen. And again, the burden of proof would rest on you to show that they cannot be regenerate. No one claims to know that any in particular are. We have pointed to the examples of it happening -- you have to convince that these could have only happened those times.

 

[Scott1]

"The isolated person in the jungle, in your hypothetical case, WILL be saved by God if God has chosen to save him. God will either send someone or something to preach the Gospel to him but God is never limited in any means."

I'm not sure what you mean by "something" to preach the Gospel to him...can you elaborate? IAC, the jungle man heard the Gospel from someone before dying. That's my point.

It is possible, for example, God could send an Angel. God spoke through Balaam's donkey and ministered by birds to Elijah.

Now understand, these are not the "ordinary" ways but God is not limited.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Let me throw this into the discussion:

1689 LBC 10.3
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

hmmm.

I think I heard that somewhere before...

WCF 10.4

Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

 

[Prufrock]

"What everyone is saying is simply that we cannot know who is elect and who is not. We can evaluate signs and make informed judgments upon the basis of those signs, but where those signs are not applicable, i.e., in someone in whom neither the signs nor the contraries are capable of being manifest, how can we make such a judgment?"

I still stand by the above statement: we behold the child, and say, "he may or may not be elect;", you behold the child, and, provided he has died, say, "he certainly was not elect." We leave it to God; you make a pronouncement. If you are going to make a pronouncement, you ought to be able to offer proof. Why not, considering that he has, in fact, regenerated infants before, leave it to God and with the rest of the Christian tradition say, "Well, maybe. We don't know, but we can surely hope."

 

[Pergamum]

I might be ruining it for a few jungle folks who would be getting a free pass if I didn't come along.

 

[OPC'n]

Thefleshprofithnothing,
I might possibly be convinced by your statement here "The Spirit gave him some kind of ABILITY, that enabled him to leap upon hearing of Mary's pregnancy." He was filled with the Holy Spirit something which is unusual. This filling of the Holy Spirit could have made him leap with joy because Mary literally carried within her the Gospel. Thank you for answer my question. I have to say that I'm halfway convinced. Now all I need to know is whether or not John the Baptist had a new nature while in the womb. I'm going to ponder this thoroughly. You guys might have a convert on your hands!

 

[Prufrock]

Jungle folks -- I think it's safe to say -- are out in our tradition.

Although, this could save our churches a lot of time and money: if we don't do missions, then we might increase the chances of a few being saved. Better play it safe then sorry. Who do we value more: those who have a chance without us, but might lose it if we come; or those who don't have a chance without us, but maybe if we come? Hmmm...

(Yes, I'm being facetious...)

 

[TheFleshProfitethNothing]

The gospel is THE POWER of God unto salvation...
Does Paul say there is any other means? Even in the case of John the Baptizer, there was some substance in Mary's conversation with Elizabeth, and the Spirit moved John to leap in the womb.

I also find it difficult to believe God regenerates anyone apart from the gospel...for it is by the foolishness of preaching (the cross) that men become saved...it is the mingling of the Spirit, the words from God himself upon the regeneration of the person preached to, that the man understands. Not the preacher himself. I see no evidence in Scripture or any Catechism where anyone was save apart from preaching.

That does not mean that an infant, who does know the voices of the one's around them after birth, because while in the womb they hear them, cannot be regenerated. It is a mystery to me, but as I said, GOD gives ABILITY; but not apart from preaching.

Even in the case of Peter...Thou art the Christ! The Son of the Living God!...This was shown to him of the Father. And Christ responded to Peter, that he was BLESSED, for flesh and blood had not revealed it unto him, but the Father revealed it. But this was not apart from the Word, for He was there, they beheld him and held him...they lived with the Word...so apart from Him, they would still have been ignorant of the way of eternal Life.

So, jungle Jim-Bob...remains lost in his sins, because Christ said "My words are Spirit, and THEY are Life". How can they hear lest a preacher be sent? Hence the need to preach. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Prufrock]

The above post, though a joke, is part of a point: whether or not God could somehow save that jungle man without the hearing of the gospel (which I think is clear, he won't), is slightly irrelevant and is harmful to the zeal of our missions work. If we don't assume they need salvation, why use so much energy and resources?

 

[OPC'n]

Well, once again thank you all it was a great debate. Thank you all for your time. Again, thank you, Thefleshprofithnothing, for you first post! I bet everyone wishes you had shown up sooner!

 

[TheFleshProfitethNothing]

 

[Scott1]

Westminster Confession

Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

Scripture proofs

[1] ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

[2] 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2CO 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[3] ROM 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). 2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

[4] ACT 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 1CO 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. EPH 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.

[5] EZE 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[6] EZE 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh. PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. DEU 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. EZE 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

[7] EPH 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power. JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[8] SON 1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee. PSA 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ROM 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

[9] 2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. TIT 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. EPH 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. ROM 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

[10] 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. EPH 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

[11] JOH 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. EZE 36:37 Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. JOH 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[12] LUK 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. JOH 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 1JO 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. ROM 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[13] JOH 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[14] 1JO 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. ACT 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Sarah, welcome to PB!

I wrote a bit of stuff about infants being elect and regenerated in the womb here (toward the end): http://www.puritanboard.com/f57/john-1-12-13-baptism-revisited-38633/

Was not John the baptist regenerated in the womb?

Does an infant "receive" her mother? "Believe" in her mother? Infants may know the Lord while in the womb. I give some examples in this post.

Kevin,

About Jim-bob in the wilds of Wyoming; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not on the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:11, 12)​

The entire human race was under wrath, consigned to destruction by our first parents (and our own sin), but on some God had compassion and rescued them from their dark and wicked state of being. We go into the jungles of the world and the wilds of the mountains to call forth God's elect.

Sarah, I don't think you could sic your pastor on anyone who was defending the Westminster Standards -- not an OPC pastor!

Glad to have you aboard.

Steve

 

[Leslie]

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

 

[toddpedlar]

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

Um, did he know Christ?

How do you know that this 'revelation' was a revelation from God and not from the enemy? What was it a revelation of? Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. Wouldn't it be the most Satanic of deceptions to cause a people to forsake idolatry and "await the coming of the white guy with the book"?

Sorry, but this doesn't qualify. Their souls still would be stained with sin and they would be unacceptable in God's eyes to stand before His throne. Apart from Christ, there is no salvation. Christ isn't in this story (unless you've simply not said so).

 

[Prufrock]

Owen once stated (pardon the loose paraphrase) that no one is saved by the knowledge of God as appease-able; men are saved by faith God appeased. That man, according to Owen, could be assured of nothing from God. He may have had his own assurance of god's goodness, just as many religions offer -- but this was not faith from God, which has its foundation in Christ. God may have used this man as a preparation for the gospel to come to a people.

Thus far Owen and his perspective. Take it or leave it.

 

[Scott1]

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

Romans 5:12

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The problem is that all men are born in sin (cf Romans 3:23). God's standard in 100% holiness (cf Matthew 5:48). So, all men are born into a bias, a tendency toward sin. It comes "naturally."

God is just in punishing sin. Justice demands that sin be punished (not rewarded with heaven).

We say man has the moral inability, because of his sin nature, to change his constituent nature so he can freely rest and trust in Christ's righteousness alone for salvation. Only God can do that for a sinner by FIRST changing his nature. That takes a miracle and only God can do it.

The Westminster Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to say:

Chapter IX
Of Free Will

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

The Scripture proofs for each statement and proposition:

[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

 

[Scott1]

Leslie
Puritanboard Sophomore

Would anyone consign him to hell?

The reason this seems unfair, even outrageous to us as fallen creatures is that we believe from our self-centered view that we are not really sinners and God is not really holy.

God's Word, however, reveals clearly that God hates sin, takes it personally because He has commanded His creatures to obey him. His Word reveals he has promised to punish it.

What should be more remarkable is that He chooses to spare some from just punishment, not because of anything they did (as all have sinned) but because of the good pleasure of His will (cf Ephesians 1:5). He is just in giving sinners what they deserve. That's what is not "fair"- letting sinners escape judgment!

 

[toddpedlar]

Leslie
Puritanboard Sophomore

Would anyone consign him to hell?

The reason this seems unfair, even outrageous to us as fallen creatures is that we believe from our self-centered view that we are not really sinners and God is not really holy.

God's Word, however, reveals clearly that God hates sin, takes it personally because He has commanded His creatures to obey him. His Word reveals he has promised to punish it.

What should be more remarkable is that He chooses to spare some from just punishment, not because of anything they did (as all have sinned) but because of the good pleasure of His will (cf Ephesians 1:5). He is just in giving sinners what they deserve. That's what is not "fair"- letting sinners escape judgment!

exactly.

Hell is the default destination, as it were, for every conceived person. We all, every one of us, bear Adam's sinful nature.

God would be just in sending every person to Hell - NOBODY, by virtue of an unfortunate birth location, or whatever, deserves any different. God by his grace has designed to save some. THAT is mercy. THAT is a marvel in and of itself. We seem to think that "everyone deserves a chance". Problem is, it just ain't so.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

Leslie,

I think we interacted on the Providence thread. You might want to go back and look at some of the things I quoted Calvin as saying about how God superintends all things.

Let me tell you how I operate when it comes to dogmatically asserting what I know God does: the Word of God.

In other words, if somebody asks me: Does God save all who place their trust in the person and work of Christ then I can emphatically tell them "Yes." If somebody asks me if God uses the Church to raise up missionaries to send forth the Gospel for the salvation of men's souls then I can say "Yes."

Why can I be dogmatic? Am I speculating at this point as to what God, from all eternity, has decreed in the inner counsel of the Trinity?

No. I can be dogmatic because God has revealed His activity in time and space.

Now, if somebody asks me a question like you did then I can only go on the things revealed. Am I able to dogmatically assert that God, by some instrumentality, prepared this man for the Gospel? No, but neither am I able to unequivocally accept this "testimony" as being from God in a dogmatic fashion. Why does anybody believe they have warrant to do so?

In this case, I'm very happy that this man led his people from some type of idolatry but how could they have known the object of their faith? Is the hope of a white man a trust in Christ?

Why can't we just stop speaking where the Scriptures stop? This is why my response to Kevin was very terse: Deuteronomy 29:29. Some are simply not satisfied with the things revealed. Yes we can praise and be overawed at God's Providence and His unsearchable ways but let's be careful to affirm what God has revealed, reject what God has revealed to reject, and be silent where the Scriptures are silent.

Finally, with respect to Hell, no man consigns another to Hell. God, alone, is the Judge of the living and the dead.

 

[Pergamum]

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

Richardson himself denies that these "pre-salvation" nuggets of knowledge are salvific.

They are preparations for the Gospel but are not the Gospel.

I know a man who has walked a week to find a missionary because he claimed to have had dreams since his youth of a white guy coming who held the truth about the afterlife. Weird, but not enough to save - but certainly a Cornelius type of experience that I think that God may still give (no new revelation here by the way) to prepare some places for the Gospel.

 

[Pergamum]

A question that may help to ask:


Are the heathen damned because they have rejected Christ?

Or,

Are the heathen damned because they are sinners who need a Saviour?




To reject Christ requires a knowledge of Christ, but we all are sinners.

 

[Herald]

A question that may help to ask:


Are the heathen damned because they have rejected Christ?

Or,

Are the heathen damned because they are sinners who need a Saviour?

Yes.

To reject Christ requires a knowledge of Christ, but we all are sinners.

The sinner does not know Christ (1 Cor. 2:14), but that does not change the fact that the call is to repent and believe.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Perg,

All men are condemned in Adam because what may be known of God is suppressed in unrighteousness. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Men were condemned before Christ came.

The BUT is the Gospel, Damnation is our end but for Christ.

I want to return to my thought about this man and stories of men having dreams to find missionaries.

If a man was to embrace the Gospel after such a dream then what a tremendous Providence that would be. I would not reject God's agency in it any more than I reject His superintendence of all things but I would not dare to speak for its salvific effect.

In fact, here is something to be on the guard for: there are many who simply hear these stories and assume that, because it is such a phenomenal story that the person who came that far and heard the Gospel was saved.

This gets back to living by the Word. If I was to interview such a fellow and I thought he didn't understand the Gospel I wouldn't think: "Oh, well, his story is so remarkable that he must be elect so I don't need to worry about his conversion. He must have been converted by that missionary because his story is so remarkable."

It's the same thing with dreams of Jesus by Muslims.

I need to check their testimony against the Word of God. I need to hear what they believe. I'd want to ensure they've really heard the Gospel knowing that they might have encountered a oneness Pentecostal or heard about who Christ is on TBN.

If I believed such a man did not understand Christ and His work then I would not allow him to rest on the laurels of his remarkable story. How many people do we know that operate with a works righteousness that claim the miraculous all the time and use their experience of the miraculous to override what God's Word says about Christ. In fact, that very thing is institutionalized in the Roman Catholic Church that claim miracles all over the world to validate its false Gospel.

Thus, in the end, our confidence is not in remarkable stories about people dreaming about Jesus but in the story of Christ and Him crucified. Be prepared for the idea that Satan could use such dreams to give men confidence that they have been saved and they close their ears to the Gospel as a result.

 

[Pergamum]

Rich, I agree with all you have said and I think of Lourdes and other Catholic "miracles" that serve as props to people's faith.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Rich, I agree with all you have said and I think of Lourdes and other Catholic "miracles" that serve as props to people's faith.

I mainly wrote the follow-on for Leslie because she seems to keep bringing these stories up. I'm not sure if there is a desire to validate them and I'm just trying to help her understand we need to be careful to stand on the Word.

 

[Mushroom]

Man, did this thread generate alot of interest fast! But that's cool, and dang if'n I ain't impressed with all the defenses put forth for infant election - so many I haven't bothered to read 'em all. Cuz, well.... I'm prolly a tad mentally incompetent to unnerstan' 'em all.

Which is my main defense of the idea that God may save both pre- and post-natal infants, toddlers, autistics, and others incapable of what we 'smarter' folks define as a proper understanding of the gospel; because regardless of how 'smarter' I think myself to be than, say, an infant, both of us are as dumb as a speck of dirt before almighty God.

I thank Jesus with all my being that He bothered to save such a wretched (and mentally incompetent) one as myself, and while I understand that the normal means He uses in salvation is the hearing of the Gospel, I am just dumb enough to concede that He is perfectly capable of redeeming His people in any other way He ordains, and smart enough not to argue with Him about it.

 

[Leslie]

Isn't the bottom line of being a Christian allegiance to the Creator-God rather than intellectual assent to propositional truth? How much theological understanding did Adam have or Enoch or Rahab? On the other hand theologically-competent Calvinists may still be their own gods, their allegiance to their own agendas rather than the Creator-God. It seems to me that the watershed is one's obedience to the light he has, not the amount of light he has been given. Isn't such obedience evidence of regeneration, even if the amount of light is minimal?

 

[OPC'n]

Jerusalem and others,
I've already said that I'm pretty convinced of this doctrine...if you go back to the bottom of page 2 I explain there.

To add another twist--how about a Jim-Bob who lived in Timbuktu before the missionaries came? God revealed Himself to Jim-Bob in a Richardson/Eternity In Their Hearts manner so that Jim-Bob loved the Creator God and hoped/trusted to be forgiven and loved by Him in return. There was such a guy in my adopted ethnic group, in the 1920's. He turned the entire group into forsaking idolatry and awaiting the coming of the white guy with the book who would teach them the whole truth. Would anyone consign him to hell?

Sometimes these stories get a life all their own. They are added to once a missionary finds these people, hears their stories, the missionary gets all excited and thinking more than he should about the story, tells the "jungle" man what he was feeling and hence the story grows arms and legs. I for one can believe that people who have never heard the Gospel know that there is a god who is good. They also know that they themselves are not good and that something must be done to reconcile the two. EVERY religion has this belief system. This belief system isn't the Gospel, however. Christ is the Gospel. So just because a jungle man has a story like this one doesn't mean God reveal the Gospel to him.