Double Predestination Jesus Style!

[NB3K]

A post I made on Amazon's boards:

Jason M. Griffin Sr. says:
Actually the greatest text in all of scripture that teaches a double predestination is from the mouth of our Very Own Savior in the parable of the weeds.

Mat 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.
Mat 13:26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
Mat 13:27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'
Mat 13:28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'
Mat 13:29 But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Do you see that the weeds never transform into wheat; likewise, the wheat that was sown from the good seed that the son of man sows never turns to a weed! And Christ himself said,

Mat 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."

Therefore if Christ is uttering the parable of the weeds as revealation of things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world, that is to say, before anyone was created, than the parable of the weeds deals with Predestination and the eternal election of God by which God was elected some for everlasting life and left the rest to suffer the just punishment for their sins

 

[steadfast7]

This interpretation is all over the place, in my opinion. First of all, I don't think it teaches double predestination from the obvious fact that "the enemy" was the one who planted the weeds. Second, the parables are not the disclosure of the secret things which only God knows in his infinite wisdom - I don't think Matt 13:35 was teaching that. Third, what you have espoused is not technically double predestination (symmetrical election of both the elect and the damned) but an asymmetrical election of the saints and passing over of the reprobate.

 

[NB3K]

Where am I going wrong? I see Satan and his lot, and I see Jesus and His lot. Is it wrong to reason that Satan's lot was an already ordained decree by the secret providence of God?

---------- Post added at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------

Or is this a clash between two presuppositions, namely Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism?

 

[steadfast7]

Where am I going wrong? I see Satan and his lot, and I see Jesus and His lot. Is it wrong to reason that Satan's lot was an already ordained decree by the secret providence of God?
Or is this a clash between two presuppositions, namely Supralapsarianism & Infralapsarianism?

No doubt others will have more complete responses, but here are some thoughts. While it's true that God's sovereignty extends over Satan and his malicious works in this world, in matters of ultimate salvation, especially having a say in who is elect or non-elect, Satan certainly does not have any part in this decision. Remember that this is what predestination is all about - God's free choice from before the foundation of the world to save and pass over sinful men.
I think the Matt 13 text is not saying anything more than that in the world that is under God's rule (some equate church with Kingdom of God) there are both those who are promoting God's rule and those attempting to destroy it. These groups are found in the church as well (John calls them antichrists in his epistles). This passage is not teaching (not with any reasonable clarity anyway) double predestination.

 

[NB3K]

Do you believe in Reprobation? For example, as Proverbs 16:4 states:

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

When I read this parable, I see the Reprobate (the weeds) which Satan planted. Now I understand that God has created men to be weeds and laid them under the hand of Satan. Not that Satan had created them, but that Satan has been given charge over them. Then, I see the Elect of God (the wheat) which the Son of Man planted from good seed. My point is that the Reprobate and the Elect of God never transform from that which they were created for.

 

[steadfast7]

I believe in reprobation as the necessary outcome of having been bypassed by God's gracious election. I don't see it as a symmetrical, mirror image of election to an opposite group. I think in order to keep God from being the author of evil, it needs to be this way. That the weeds do not change is not something the parable wishes to highlight - thus it should not be emphasized then used as a positive argument for double predestination. Nor is there any indication that the Master farmer hired to enemy to do his bidding. This would amount to a kind of creative or allegorical exegesis which should be avoided. With all parables, it's meant to illustrate something, but not in a technical one-to-one relationship with reality - else we have God saying to us, "use mammon to make friends for yourselves ..."

 

[NB3K]

Can we agree that the parable of the Weeds implies double predestination? Because I believe that weeds are predestined to be weeds. We see it by weeds not becoming wheat & vice versa. I mean this parable does show that which I am talking about. Weeds have only one end for which they are to exist and that is to glorify God's good grace. On the judgment day, as we all weeds, & wheat, stand before the Majestic, and Holy throne of our great God. These weeds will be burning with an an unquenchable fire. In order to magnify the riches of God's Amazing Grace! Then we pathetic and stupid sheep will truely have a god fearing and proper knowlede of God's Magnificient Grace. For we are too retarded to properly and fully understand God's Grace! We can only imagine what will happen from Scripture, but on that day God will be EXALTED! To ends and bounds that have never been seen or heard! For the angels that are in the presence will not be able to Exalt God as much as we poor wretched sinners will! For on that day we will KNOW THE LOVE OF OUR GOOD GOD!

 

[au5t1n]

Dennis seems to be arguing against "equal ultimacy," not "double predestination." All Calvinists believe in double predestination. It's what separates us from the Lutherans.

I'm not sure if this parable implies double predestination clearly because the farmer didn't put the weeds there or choose for there to be weeds. Better to stick with Romans 9, which clearly teaches double predestination.

 

[steadfast7]

The weeds simply ARE weeds, just as goats simply ARE goats. To say they "have been predestined to be weeds" by virtue of their not having been changed is creative, but not convincing. Austin is correct, Romans 9 is where we where we want to go for the doctrine of predestination (with acceptable differences in understanding vis a vis ultimacy from within the Reformed camp).

 

[NB3K]

Austin is correct, Romans 9 is where we where we want to go for the doctrine of predestination (with acceptable differences in understanding vis a vis ultimacy from within the Reformed camp).

That is simply not true. If Paul taught Double Predestination, Christ has also taught it!

 

[torstar]

Hmmm, Proverbs 16:4, Romans 9:22-23, did we forget Eph 1:5 to complete the reference?

 

[NB3K]

There are many places in Scripture where one can find the Eternal Doctrine of Double Predestination. The problem that we face in this evil age is cornering ourselves to only one text and not backing it by many other texts this is called Sola Scripturia!

 

[NB3K]

I believe in reprobation as the necessary outcome of having been bypassed by God's gracious election.

So you don't see Reprobation as a decree that keeps weeds as weeds ensuring their utter destruction.

 

[toddpedlar]

I believe in reprobation as the necessary outcome of having been bypassed by God's gracious election.

So you don't see Reprobation as a decree that keeps weeds as weeds ensuring their utter destruction.

The weeds were, in the parable, placed there by the Enemy.

How does this square in any fashion with double predestination?

As has already been said, you seem to be stretching the text greatly in order to find another place wherein double predestination can be found. Better to rest the doctrine on but a few texts than to stretch another text to fit the doctrine.

 

[CharlieJ]

So, how would you argue against someone who said this parable proves that people are born saved, whereas others are born lost, and that never changes? After all, the wheat stay wheat and the weeds stay weeds.

I think it's clear that the point of the parable is about the commingling of saved and lost until the final judgment. To invoke predestination is, in my opinion, to deviate from the intent of the passage.

 

[NB3K]

So, how would you argue against someone who said this parable proves that people are born saved, whereas others are born lost, and that never changes? After all, the wheat stay wheat and the weeds stay weeds.

Well we all know everyone is born lost. But not all are born decreed with obtaining Life!

Mat 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
Therefore if Christ is uttering the parable of the weeds as revealation of things that have been hidden since the foundation of the world, that is to say, before anyone was created, than the parable of the weeds deals with Predestination and the eternal election of God by which God was elected some for everlasting life and left the rest to suffer the just punishment for their sins

I am saying that this refers to predestination between the Weed & Wheat because before Christ gave the explanation of this parable, it was stated: I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.

 

[steadfast7]

I am saying that this refers to predestination between the Weed & Wheat because before Christ gave the explanation of this parable, it was stated: I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.

Predestination belongs to God's secret knowledge which is NOT disclosed. Parables were revelatory (at least to those who had ears to hear). You're comparing apples with oranges here.