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Who can give the best 1 paragraph definition of FV?
Entrance into God’s covenant is objective via our water baptism. There is no distinction between the visible and invisible church. The term “elect” applies corporately to those who are objectively in the covenant. Water baptism is the distinguishing mark of those who constitute the elect of God. Our water baptism, be it infant baptism or adult baptism constitutes true union with Christ, meaning that we have all of the saving graces at our baptism. Since we are in genuine union with Christ at out baptism and since apostasy is a real warning in Scripture, those who renounce the faith or who live rebellious lives with regards to God’s commandments can lose their salvation. This means that one loses his initial justification. There is a final justification that must be maintained by faithful obedience to God’s law throughout one’s lifetime. Justification is seen in terms of “obedient faith” or as “faithfulness.” Good works are not merely the genuine fruit or evidence of saving faith; it is seen as the essence of faith. We are justified by covenantal faithfulness, and justification is progressive in the sense that we will be declared justified on the Day of Judgment as long as we did not apostatize during our lifetime. The covenant of works is non-existent. Jesus’ active obedience or His righteous keeping of the law has nothing to do with the basis of our justification on the final Day of Judgment. Christ’s obedience to the law enabled Him to be the worthy, sinless, sacrifice, giving Him a right standing before God the Father so that union with Christ in His resurrected and glorified life is what is creditied to us, not His meritorious works on our behalf.
It falls just short of universalism but in a way it is, if you are a part of the church. It is universalism within the church.
It sounds sort of like Catholicism, in that there is baptismal regeneration and being a member of the church and participating in the sacriments saves. It falls just short of universalism but in a way it is, if you are a part of the church. It is universalism within the church.
It sounds sort of like Catholicism, in that there is baptismal regeneration and being a member of the church and participating in the sacriments saves. It falls just short of universalism but in a way it is, if you are a part of the church. It is universalism within the church.
But don't they teach that those who are in the Church, although they partake of the benefits of salvation, can lose their election through disobedience?
It sounds sort of like Catholicism, in that there is baptismal regeneration and being a member of the church and participating in the sacriments saves. It falls just short of universalism but in a way it is, if you are a part of the church. It is universalism within the church.
But don't they teach that those who are in the Church, although they partake of the benefits of salvation, can lose their election through disobedience?
No need for a paragraph, how about two words: "VEILED ROMANISM".
No need for a paragraph, how about two words: "VEILED ROMANISM".
Well put.
So can it be refined to say that if one is a good and faithful church goer, one who partakes of the sacraments regulary, this will sort of keep them in the faith?
People outside of the church are not saved and the fate of wayward members may be in question, but those who have the means of grace exhibited towards them are in good standing with God and the church and are thus secured?
Just thinking.
Here is a summary by John Otis in his book Danger in the Camp:
Entrance into God’s covenant is objective via our water baptism. There is no distinction between the visible and invisible church. The term “elect” applies corporately to those who are objectively in the covenant. Water baptism is the distinguishing mark of those who constitute the elect of God. Our water baptism, be it infant baptism or adult baptism constitutes true union with Christ, meaning that we have all of the saving graces at our baptism. Since we are in genuine union with Christ at out baptism and since apostasy is a real warning in Scripture, those who renounce the faith or who live rebellious lives with regards to God’s commandments can lose their salvation. This means that one loses his initial justification. There is a final justification that must be maintained by faithful obedience to God’s law throughout one’s lifetime. Justification is seen in terms of “obedient faith” or as “faithfulness.” Good works are not merely the genuine fruit or evidence of saving faith; it is seen as the essence of faith. We are justified by covenantal faithfulness, and justification is progressive in the sense that we will be declared justified on the Day of Judgment as long as we did not apostatize during our lifetime. The covenant of works is non-existent. Jesus’ active obedience or His righteous keeping of the law has nothing to do with the basis of our justification on the final Day of Judgment. Christ’s obedience to the law enabled Him to be the worthy, sinless, sacrifice, giving Him a right standing before God the Father so that union with Christ in His resurrected and glorified life is what is creditied to us, not His meritorious works on our behalf.
Are there any good descriptions of FV in a paragraph that could be understood by most people in the church. I find most answers thus far to be over many people's heads.
Summarizing the FV into a paragraph cannot be done because as soon as you think you have captured the essence then an FVer will say, "No, that's not what it is." If you list what you believe is a specific belief of the FVer, he will reply, "I would never sign off on that." The best one word description of FV teaching is CONFUSION, however the FVer will quickly add that 'You are the one who has confused matters. OY!
So can it be refined to say that if one is a good and faithful church goer, one who partakes of the sacraments regulary, this will sort of keep them in the faith?
People outside of the church are not saved and the fate of wayward members may be in question, but those who have the means of grace exhibited towards them are in good standing with God and the church and are thus secured?
Just thinking.
Sort of... in the FV view, in order to retain the benefits of salvation that a person is endowed with at
baptism, one must continue to live a life of faithful obedience, (which includes participation in
the sacraments) to the end, or else lose those benefits. It is said quite clearly (and ALMOST in
so many words) that you enter covenant by grace, and stay in it by works.
Indeed it does, for the tendency of FV adherents is to replace soteriology with ecclesiology, while acknowledging little or no distinction between the visible/invisible church. Like Romanists, they do not like the visible/invisible church distinction, because for them, ecclesiology is a replacement for soteriology.It sounds sort of like Catholicism, in that there is baptismal regeneration and being a member of the church and participating in the sacriments saves. It falls just short of universalism but in a way it is, if you are a part of the church. It is universalism within the church.