Dancing during the service

[TimV]

So, last night I went to a Bible study led by a new elder at the lib PCA church I used to attend. He told the 7 college kids that we should get to know ourselves, and to feel comfortable with ourselves. As an application he said that we should act in church just like we act any other time. So to clarify I asked if he meant acting the way we always act during the worship service. He said yes.

So I said there was an aspect of reverence during a service that would preclude acting like we would at a party or ball game. He rejected the idea and as an example he said what's wrong with dancing? I didn't really know how to answer, and didn't want to talk about elements and circumstances. I did mention the RPW, and most of the kids didn't know what that meant, so I suppose I took the easy way out and pointed to a young woman I'm friends with and said I'd love to be taught by her (music major) in music theory but if she were to preach on a Sunday morning I'd complain, and win my complaint. Which was naturally appealing to the law, rather than Scripture (kind of; I'm putting my feet in the kid's shoes).

So, I lamely said David danced before the Lord, but it wasn't in "church".

Anyway, how would any of you answered that question?

Thanks

 

[Notthemama1984]

I Cor. 14:40 comes to mind. Here is Barnes on the verse

Let all things be done decently and in order - Let all things be done in an "appropriate" and "becoming" manner; "decorously," as becomes the worship of God. Let all be done in "order, regularly;" without confusion, discord, tumult. The word used here (κατὰ τάξιν kata taxin) is properly a military term, and denotes the order and regularity with which an army is drawn up. This is a general rule, which was to guide them. It was simple, and easily applied. There might be a thousand questions started about the modes and forms of worship, and the customs in the churches, and much difficulty might occur in many of these questions; but here was a simple and plain rule, which might be easily applied. Their good sense would tell them what became the worship of God; and their pious feelings would restrain them from excesses and disorders. This rule is still applicable, and is safe in guiding us in many things in regard to the worship of God. There are many things which cannot be subjected to "rule," or exactly prescribed; there are many things which may and must be left to pious feeling, to good sense, and to the views of Christians themselves, about what will promote their edification and the conversion of sinners. The rule in such questions is plain. Let all be done "decorously," as becomes the worship of the great and holy God; let all be without confusion, noise, and disorder.

I would point out that no military unit would allow for each of the soldiers to do as they please or as they felt at the time. Everything is done together and in order. Corporate worship is the same way. We worship together and in order, not individually doing as one pleases.

 

[lynnie]

If you hold to instruments being acceptable and appropriate for worship, I don't see how you can reject dance.

Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

I've seen it happen years ago in a way that seemed very glorifying to God, with a lot of men- not just women, but mostly men- breaking out into leaping and rejoicing during a peppy song, and it was so....masculine. I remember thinking at the time that it was just so masculine. Hard to explain. It was male leadership in praise.

I've seen it more often in what I look back on as distracting, sappy, fleshly.

But anyway, to be biblical, how can you separate out the dancing in paslm 150 from the stringed instruments?

The guys premise was wrong: As an application he said that we should act in church just like we act any other time. You could use the example of Paul in Corinthians- Paul prayed a certain way in private, but in the church he only wanted to do what would edify others. Church is a place where you seek to edify the body, not have your personal private devotions. It isn't a place where you act like you act at home alone.

 

[Wayne]

Your bible teacher had things turned around. We should act in the world the way we act in church! Take him and the class to Ephesians 4 and work from there.

 

[TimV]

Those are good, thanks. I suppose it's too much to hope for that there's any sort of position paper in the PCA dealing with it

 

[seajayrice]

Just curious, like Hava Nagila dancing or something from the mosh pit?

 

[ericfromcowtown]

Those are good, thanks. I suppose it's too much to hope for that there's any sort of position paper in the PCA dealing with it

I'm surprised that you ran into that attitude at a PCA church. I admit that my experience in PCA congregations is limited to my church and one other congregation down in Phoenix, but dancing during a worship service sounds more in tune with the flag-waving ("liturgical dance") that I see in my inlaws pentacostal church than in any reformed congregation.

 

[Pilgrim]

Hey, don't let Bob Jones see this thread!

I ended up deciding not to join an EPC church years ago because of this and eventually joined an OPC church. The preaching of the EPC pastor was excellent, with the pastor being frequently featured on Sermon Audio. But it was mildly charismatic, and there was an older woman who would frequently dance during the singing. I wondered to myself if it is ok for one to do it, why not everyone? Would that be orderly? That's one question I didn't bring before the leadership, and I don't know if I would have gotten a definite answer.

I haven't thought about these issues for a long time, but I tend to agree that unless we hold to a relatively strict view of the RPW that it's hard to exclude a lot of things from worship on any grounds other than personal preference. Drama isn't listed in either Testament so I suppose it could be excluded on those grounds.

 

[Wayne]

About the only book that I'm aware of that specifically addresses the subject of dance is Brian Edwards' Shall We Dance: Dance and Drama in Worship
Shall We Dance?: Brian Edwards: 9780852341902: Christianbook.com

Reviewed: Review of Brian Edward's, "Shall We Dance?"

 

[seajayrice]

Here is another

About the only book that I'm aware of that specifically addresses the subject of dance is Brian Edwards' Shall We Dance: Dance and Drama in Worship
Shall We Dance?: Brian Edwards: 9780852341902: Christianbook.com

Reviewed: Review of Brian Edward's, "Shall We Dance?"

John Frame, Worship in Spirit and Truth: A Refreshing Study of the Principles and Practice of Biblical Worship

 

[TimV]

Thanks, but there's no way reading a book will convince that type. If there isn't anything that would prevent it, they'll be doin' some serious boogie.

 

[KMK]

Dancing is one of those things that is difficult to define and therefore difficult to regulate. Are people allowed to tap their toe? Sway? Bob their heads? I understand your concern, Tim, but I don't know how you can successfully argue against it without getting into some form of legalism.

 

[TimV]

I think you're probably right. Thanks!

 

[Pilgrim]

Dancing is one of those things that is difficult to define and therefore difficult to regulate. Are people allowed to tap their toe? Sway? Bob their heads? I understand your concern, Tim, but I don't know how you can successfully argue against it without getting into some form of legalism.

I agree, especially provided that the worshipers do not move away from their seats. Hand raising is a related issue.

The dancing I was referring to above involved getting out into the middle aisle and sometimes going up and down other aisles, as well as the front of the sanctuary, although not on the platform. It basically amounted to raising the hands and arms and similar movements, but no doubt many would find it objectionable and distracting.

 

[LeeD]

About the only book that I'm aware of that specifically addresses the subject of dance is Brian Edwards' Shall We Dance: Dance and Drama in Worship
Shall We Dance?: Brian Edwards: 9780852341902: Christianbook.com

Reviewed: Review of Brian Edward's, "Shall We Dance?"

John Frame, Worship in Spirit and Truth: A Refreshing Study of the Principles and Practice of Biblical Worship

THis was a very helpful read I just finished up a few days ago.

 

[AThornquist]

I think each congregation needs to reverently, soberly define what is orderly and right for their church and culture. I would feel much less comfortable dancing in a U.S. church than in a foreign church that finds it normal to dance. Besides, there are many people who sway and move during worship in a non-distracting way in some congregations but would make the much more stiff congregations very uncomfortable. It's subjective. That is why I say each congregation needs to define what they do and why they do it. At my church, full out dancing in public worship would be distracting, but there is liberty in raising hands, moving some in the place you are standing, etc. So while we have no problem with dancing in private worship, it is not fit for our church or culture. This reminds me of my Facebook status yesterday: "I'm not against John leaping in Elizabeth's womb at the presence of Jesus as long as it's not in public worship."

 

[Peairtach]

Like musical instruments, dancing, clapping and shouting aren't mentioned as part of New Covenant worship.

God does not require such things in New Covenant worship, but you'd get the impression from some churches that the Lord would be most displeased if they were absent.

You get the impression that they are done or introduced more for the benefit and entertainment of the worshippers than for the worship and glory of God. Maybe worship is too boring without them?

We are in a more spiritual era, and not in our babyhood, the babyhood of Israel. The more mature, and maturing, New Covenant Israel of God should learn to put away childish things and grow up (I Cor 13:11).

 

[AThornquist]

We are in a more spiritual era, and not in our babyhood, the babyhood of Israel. The more mature, and maturing, New Covenant Israel of God should learn to put away childish things and grow up (I Cor 13:11).

I don't think it's more "spiritual" to be stiff as a board and emotionless. In fact, I think putting "away childish things" includes doing away with the mentality that expressions of emotion and movement are the result of mere emotionalism and cannot be manifestations of true spirituality.

 

[timmopussycat]

Speaking as an ex-charismatic (18 years away from the movent), I have found that the physical marks of that movement (lifting up of hands, dancing) to be, on different occasions, both edifying many present when heartfelt by the participants and distracting to an equal number when mindlessly practiced as a routine congregational norm. I'd like to suggest that the better way might be putting away both the "stiff as a board and emotionless" and the "anything goes" mentalities in favour of worshipping in Spirit and in truth which may lead to some practices at some times and others at different times.

 

[Peairtach]

I don't think it's more "spiritual" to be stiff as a board and emotionless. In fact, I think putting "away childish things" includes doing away with the mentality that expressions of emotion and movement are the result of mere emotionalism and cannot be manifestations of true spirituality.

They could be signs of spirituality, but they're not necessary in New Covenant spirituality otherwise we'd have commands for them, just as we'd have a command for e.g. Christmas and dog collars if they were necessary to express our spirituality and help our sanctification.

The child of God in the New Covenant Israel is under no obligation before God to dance and God will not be displeased with him/her if he doesn't, nor will her sanctification be marred if she doesn't.

Hand-waving during singing isn't found in the Bible.

It's important to know our freedoms in Christ. It's amazing how what is not commanded - even in worship - becomes de rigeur and then obligatory, while other things that are commanded can become neglected.

Before you know it the (sung) worship is overlaid with a pile of extraneous and unnecessary distractions from the Word.

 

[AThornquist]

I'd like to suggest that the better way might be putting away both the "stiff as a board and emotionless" and the "anything goes" mentalities in favour of worshipping in Spirit and in truth which may lead to some practices at some times and others at different times.

Amen. Doing things superficially and merely "as expected," whether emotionally or stoically, is not worship.

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

They could be signs of spirituality, but they're not necessary in New Covenant spirituality otherwise we'd have commands for them, just as we'd have a command for e.g. Christmas and dog collars if they were necessary to express our spirituality and help our sanctification.

Sure, but who said they were necessary in the first place? The question is one of liberty, not necessity. Are Christians at liberty to dance, raise hands, etc.? In my congregation the answers would be, "We would rather you not dance because it would be distracting." and "If you raise your hands as an overflow from the worship in your heart, feel free, but it doesn't make your worship more acceptable to God."

The child of God in the New Covenant Israel is under no obligation before God to dance and God will not be displeased with him/her if he doesn't, nor will her sanctification be marred if she doesn't.

No one here said someone was under obligation before God to dance. The only people I know who would say such a thing are really on the fringe and probably not even Christian.

 

[Pergamum]

I feel a Word from the Lord coming.....it says, "...Hey.... Macarena...Ayight"

Some thoughts:

(1) I have never read any of the church fathers or Reformers advocate this. If there are references to dancing in the service during centuries past I would love to read them. If it were acceptable to outrightly dance in church then wouldn't we read something in historical theology about it, and wouldn't a huge gaping absence be a sign that we shouldn't do it?

(2) I once saw a spiritual retreat among an unreached people group here. Some people has walked 7 hours to get there and this was in an environment of heavy persecution and in an area where believers rarely gathered with each other. Spontanous dance broke out and weeping for jy because they could all be together. It seemed very pure and of the Lord and I could see nothing wrong with it.

(3) It was mentioned above that hand-waving during singing is never found in the bible. Would we expect the Bible to mention this? It does mention lifting up holy hands. But, yes, it is never commanded so that is a huge argument. However, I am not EP and I am not against instrumental accompaniment of music in church. But how do I say music can rightly accompany songs but dancing cannot?

 

[KMK]

If you hold to instruments being acceptable and appropriate for worship, I don't see how you can reject dance.

I agree. As a worship leader, I am sensitive to the fact that I get to move with the music simply because I have an instrument in my hand. Moving with music is a natural physical reaction. (Try to hold yourself stiff as a board while listening to Scott Joplin) Why should I forbid others from moving without instruments when I am moving with an instrument?