Covenant Theology, RPW, and Musical Instruments

[ColdSilverMoon]

No, that's not the point. Instruments are just that - tools used for worshipping God, but unable to worship God by themselves. Tim's point is that God gave man the ability to worship Him through inventions such as instruments.

Exodus 20:25 'And if you make Me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stone; for if you use your tool on it, you have profaned it.

Before you dismiss this as patently unrelated to the issue under discussion, think about the reason for this command and the purpose of worship...

Well, this discussion isn't about the sacrificial system, which is what your Scripture reference concerns. Sacrifices were necessarily 100% pure (or at least symbolically so), otherwise they could not atone for sin. Worship does not require perfection. If only perfect people could worship, churches would be quite empty on Sunday morning...

 

[RTaron]

[No, that's not the point. Instruments are just that - tools used for worshipping God, but unable to worship God by themselves. Tim's point is that God gave man the ability to worship Him through inventions such as instruments.

I thought our presupposition for this thread was the RPW.
The point is to worship God with reverence and godly fear. That means coming to him and asking, Lord what will you have me to do?

You just put your foot in your mouth while speaking about your liberty in making inventions for worship.

Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
Psalms 106:29
Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Psalms 106:39
Ecclesiastes 7:29 *Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[DeoOpt]

So you bring in the instraments, ie bass, guitar, drums. Then you start dancing, clapping, raiseing your hands. Yes its all about entertainment rather than worship. Ohh dont stop ther next you will want a coffee and book shope so it will be convenient on the Lords day to do so. Dont think it wont happen? Well my friends it happend to me when I attended a particular reformed church for 2 years, slowley thay incorperated these things into there worship. I left that church. But remember "a little leaven leavens the whole lump"

You are jumping to a conclusion that does not necessarily follow. The correct use of instruments to accompany worship does not necessarily lead to the conclusions you draw. I can't dispute what happenened in your case, but you can't dispute that I have been 18 years in a church that uses instruments and occasional dance (which by the way is the biblical use of dance, since dance was never commanded as a regular part of the OT worship but only occurred on very special occasions) and we certainly don't entertain.

My dear Mr Bunyan. After being in a traditional seculer church for a good portion of my life, (and thanks be to God Im in a reformed church now) I guess my "jumping to conclusions' was out of disdane for that easy believeism churches out there with wich I do not want to go back to, nore be reminded of that "slough of despond" in wich I was once shamfully aquainted with. And I am glad that I escaped that "city of distruction". And am now on my pilgramige to that "celestial city" Perhapes you have been talking to "worldly wise man" to much our perhapes "the man in the Iron cage." But I remember my visit at "the Interpriters house" and have lerned much. Pehapes you want go skipping down "bypass medow " and straight to the castle dispier." but I will have no part of that type of worship.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

[No, that's not the point. Instruments are just that - tools used for worshipping God, but unable to worship God by themselves. Tim's point is that God gave man the ability to worship Him through inventions such as instruments.

I thought our presupposition for this thread was the RPW.
The point is to worship God with reverence and godly fear. That means coming to him and asking, Lord what will you have me to do?

You just put your foot in your mouth while speaking about your liberty in making inventions for worship.

Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.
Psalms 106:29
Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Psalms 106:39
Ecclesiastes 7:29 *Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying at all. Would you mind elaborating a bit?

 

[Bygracealone]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

C'mon Steve none of those guys have any idea about which they speak...

 

[Bygracealone]

C'mon Steve none of those guys have any idea about which they speak...

 

[RTaron]

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

WoW! that is a cool quote from Chrysostom. thanks.

 

[panta dokimazete]

And so the exegetical discussion is diluted...

 

[timmopussycat]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

In other words

"Even those these men are respected by everyone and have written boatloads they disagree with me on this issue, ergo they are irrelevant".

 

[timmopussycat]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

In other words

"Even those these men are respected by everyone and have written boatloads they disagree with me on this issue, ergo they are irrelevant".

Since when do any "Reformed" accept the opinions of men as authoritative when they are not buttressed by Scripture? And if you do accept such opinions, why aren't you a Lutheran? After all Luther is respected by everyone worth mentioning within Protestant Christianity, has written boatloads of stuff with a very high theological batting average for being right, has he not?

Let me answer my question for you. You are not a Lutheran because you think you can show from Scripture that Luther got some important things wrong, am I right? Well, I think I can show from Scripture that the opinion the men you cite are pushing is as incorrect as Luther is on the points where you differ from him (except on hymns in church perhaps!).

Sorry if this seems snide, but I have said "Ad fontes!" already. How many more times do I have to say it?

 

[ChristianTrader]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

Irrelevant is way too strong a term. There exists a view between, quoting some respected church fathers, then saying, "Let the discussion cease". and "I have my Bible and the Holy Spirit, and I need to hear nothing else from anybody."

There is also the problem that exegesis does not exist in a vacuum. It is always colored by various views that you bring to the text. Some are correct but some can also be false.

CT

 

[RTaron]

CT

Good point CT. you are always a moderating influence.

I don't know about you all, but I am tired of seeing those quotes quoted.

Let's move on to this question, if i may be so bold as to propose one.

What is praise? We want a good scriptural definition.

Then, ..Can mechanical instruments give praise?

Is this off topic?

 

[Roldan]

Do you necessarily need instruments to make melody?

I can beatbox really good, would that be coo in worship? I'm using my voicebox

 

[timmopussycat]

CT

Good point CT. you are always a moderating influence.

I don't know about you all, but I am tired of seeing those quotes quoted.

Let's move on to this question, if i may be so bold as to propose one.

What is praise? We want a good scriptural definition.

Then, ..Can mechanical instruments give praise?

Is this off topic?

Yes because the question obscures what is at issue. The problem is not whether or not mechanical instruments give praise (they can't), but whether or not the use of non-vocal instruments to accompany sung praise originally instituted by God midway through the Mosaic covenanant may be a legitimate use of such instruments now.
And I am not saying that the opinions of Christian worthies are irrelevant, I just ask that they be supported by Scripture.

 

[RTaron]

CT

Good point CT. you are always a moderating influence.

I don't know about you all, but I am tired of seeing those quotes quoted.

Let's move on to this question, if i may be so bold as to propose one.

What is praise? We want a good scriptural definition.

Then, ..Can mechanical instruments give praise?

Is this off topic?

Yes because the question obscures what is at issue. The problem is not whether or not mechanical instruments give praise (they can't), but whether or not the use of non-vocal instruments to accompany sung praise originally instituted by God midway through the Mosaic covenanant may be a legitimate use of such instruments now.
And I am not saying that the opinions of Christian worthies are irrelevant, I just ask that they be supported by Scripture.

So, you aren't promoting the use of mechanical instruments in public worship apart from singing Praise?

 

[timmopussycat]

So, you aren't promoting the use of mechanical instruments in public worship apart from singing Praise?

As I understood the discussion, it was whether or not musical instruments other than voices were permitted in church worship. Using musical instruments other than voices to do anything else in church is a separate question I am not here addressing at all.

 

[timmopussycat]

If Peter preached unamplified to 3000+ people outdoors, surely anyone indoors can handle your average Reformed church. Lift up that voice!

Depends on the acoustics of the church. If it has a flat ceiling in the meeting room and is square in shape no problem. But if it has a raised ceiling or oblong shape the acoustics may make it impossible for even a roaring sargent major to be heard.
Martyn Lloyd Jones says somewhere that Westminster chapel "has killed men" who ministered there in the days before amplification.

 

[RTaron]

As I understood the discussion, it was whether or not musical instruments other than voices were permitted in church worship. Using musical instruments other than voices to do anything else in church is a separate question I am not here addressing at all.

Okay fair enough we should only talk about instruments accompanying the singing. Frankly, it was hard trying to follow JD's ideas of what was prescriptive in the psalms for worship.

I follow the argument that the instruments were ordained for use in conjunction with the sacrifices and that they should cease after the final sacrifice.

What it sounds like you and JD might be saying is that the instruments were not only used for the Levitical system of offering sacrifices, but they were for some other purpose. What was that purpose?

 

[Bygracealone]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

WESLEY

"I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

CHRYSOSTOM

"David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

Interesting... Have you not been expressing your "opinion" throughout this thread? Should I therefore conclude that your posts are irrelevant?

In the above quotes, Spurgeon and Calvin support their views with 1 Cor. 14. I would hardly call this the "pure opinions of men" and I wouldn't dare say these men were strangers to the discipline of exegesis. Furthermore, if you look more carefully at the quotes, you'll notice the sources from which they come; they come from commentaries; commentaries on the Psalms; commentaries that exegete the Scriptures and draw conclusions from that exegesis. What we have in these quotes is the fruit of their exegesis, not just the "pure opinions of men."

Furthermore, I don't even agree with all that these men teach, in fact, they don't always agree with each other, but that's actually the point for including the quotes--there was a great amount of harmony on this position at one time among the various denominations. That harmony lasted many years until it was disrupted by those who introduced instruments into the assemblies. So much for striving for peace within the Church...

Psalm 122:6-9 6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you. 7 Peace be within your walls, Prosperity within your palaces." 8 For the sake of my brethren and companions, I will now say, "Peace be within you." 9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek your good.

We must realize that the use of instruments in worship is an overall new practice in light of the history of the Church. The introduction of instruments into worship is one of the roots to the awful "worship wars" we see today. Brothers, it is my prayer that our Lord will bring back the harmony we once had in the Church. I know He will answer that prayer ultimately, but I pray that we might see it even before glory.

Psalm 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity!

Sadly, this unity is hindered because Churches/elders/leadership have allowed the preferences of men to be included and expressed in the worship service from assembly to assembly. Where preferences are given the stage, there is no end to the "wars."

Unity and peace will be found when we get back to worshipping our Lord in the simple, but profound manner of singing His Word (the Psalms) in light of the glorious work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (without instruments because He is the final sacrifice).

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

&

 

[dcomin]

We must realize that the use of instruments in worship is an overall new practice in light of the history of the Church. The introduction of instruments into worship is one of the roots to the awful "worship wars" we see today. Brothers, it is my prayer that our Lord will bring back the harmony we once had in the Church. I know He will answer that prayer ultimately, but I pray that we might see it even before glory.

Psalm 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity!

Sadly, this unity is hindered because Churches/elders/leadership have allowed the preferences of men to be included and expressed in the worship service from assembly to assembly. Where preferences are given the stage, there is no end to the "wars."

Unity and peace will be found when we get back to worshipping our Lord in the simple, but profound manner of singing His Word (the Psalms) in light of the glorious work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (without instruments because He is the final sacrifice).

Well said, brother Steve. Amen.

 

[timmopussycat]

As I understood the discussion, it was whether or not musical instruments other than voices were permitted in church worship. Using musical instruments other than voices to do anything else in church is a separate question I am not here addressing at all.

Okay fair enough we should only talk about instruments accompanying the singing. Frankly, it was hard trying to follow JD's ideas of what was prescriptive in the psalms for worship.

I follow the argument that the instruments were ordained for use in conjunction with the sacrifices and that they should cease after the final sacrifice.

What it sounds like you and JD might be saying is that the instruments were not only used for the Levitical system of offering sacrifices, but they were for some other purpose. What was that purpose?

The fundamental purpose of the Psalms is to glorify God. In OT Israel, although much glorifying of God was connected with the sacrifices, not all glorifying of God was tied to the sacrifices. The psalms are not linked with the sacrifices so that they cease once the sacrifice is made because:
a) As I keep saying, some of them were written before David set up the Levitical worship teams.
b) The content of many psalms is not linked to the system. Many celebrate the Lord's deliverance of their author without reference to the system.
c) Nor were Psalms sung only in conjunction with the sacrifices or in the temple. Jewish boys and girls were taught the psalms in their village schools.
d) Although the sacrifices have ceased with Christ's one sufficient sacrifice of himself, he himself has commanded us to remember his death. Some of the Psalms prophecy details of his death and are needed to be used in the rememberence thereof.
e) Whether or not we are meant to sing Psalms exclusively in the NT, we are clearly commanded to sing Psalms today, and the Psalms themselves tell us that accompanying sung Psalms by musical instruments is permisable. The only way that instrumental accompaniment of sung Psalms could be impermissible in the New Covenant era is if God had prohibited the use of Psalms in the New Covenant era because they were too linked to the OC sacrificial system.

 

[timmopussycat]

SPURGEON

"We should like to see all the pipes of the organs in our Nonconformist places of worship either ripped open or compactly fill with concrete. The human voice is so transcendently superior to all that wind or strings can accomplish that it is a shame to degrade its harmonies by association with blowing and scraping…That the great Lord cares to be praised by bellows we very gravely question; we cannot see any connection between the glory of God and sounds produced by machinery. One broken note from a grateful heart must have more real acceptable praise in it than all the wind which sweeps through whistling pipes. Instrumental music…was no doubt well-suited to…the infant state of the Church under the law, but in the Gospel’s spiritual domain these may well be let go with all the other beggarly elements."

"Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

"David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

CALVIN

"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (1 Corinthians 14:16) (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

The above is pure opinions of men; not exegesis of Scripture, hence irrelevant.

Interesting... Have you not been expressing your "opinion" throughout this thread? Should I therefore conclude that your posts are irrelevant?

In the above quotes, Spurgeon and Calvin support their views with 1 Cor. 14. I would hardly call this the "pure opinions of men" and I wouldn't dare say these men were strangers to the discipline of exegesis. Furthermore, if you look more carefully at the quotes, you'll notice the sources from which they come; they come from commentaries; commentaries on the Psalms; commentaries that exegete the Scriptures and draw conclusions from that exegesis. What we have in these quotes is the fruit of their exegesis, not just the "pure opinions of men."

Just because men are no strangers to the exegetical process doesn't mean they can't make mistakes and just because they cite a Scripture doesn't mean they use it rightly. One element of exegesis is justifying one's view that a particular Scripture entails a particular teaching. To assert, as Calvin and Spurgeon do that the 1 Cor. 14 verse applies to instrumental accompaniment of sung praise is demonstatably false due to misunderstandings of what instrumental accompanyment of sung praise is and what was possible for Paul to have meant by his words. Let me prove my point.

When we accompany sung praise with instruments we are not singing to God with machinery nor are we singing in an unknown tongue, we are accompanying sung praise to God. As far as we can know, nobody in the history of Israel thought accompaiment was another language, nor was it the dominant view of Greek music theorists (I speak as a professionally trained musician), if in fact such a view had been conjectured at all. In context of 1 Cor. 14 Paul is aiming to reduce confusion in services due to multiple speakers using multiple languages. He does not mention instruments at all. But maybe that is an implicit necessary consequence of his words, you say. No it is not. For Paul well knew that instrumental accompaniment of sung praise did not always yield confusion, he had participated in the sacrifices which did involve instrumental accompaniment and he knew by experience that instrumental accompaniment did not necessarily yield confusion. The final proof that instrumental accompaniment does not necessarily lead to confusion in worship is that God had commanded accompaniment in Israel's worship, and he is not a God of confusion but of peace.

Furthermore, I don't even agree with all that these men teach, in fact, they don't always agree with each other, but that's actually the point for including the quotes--there was a great amount of harmony on this position at one time among the various denominations. That harmony lasted many years until it was disrupted by those who introduced instruments into the assemblies. So much for striving for peace within the Church...

We must realize that the use of instruments in worship is an overall new practice in light of the history of the Church. The introduction of instruments into worship is one of the roots to the awful "worship wars" we see today. Brothers, it is my prayer that our Lord will bring back the harmony we once had in the Church. I know He will answer that prayer ultimately, but I pray that we might see it even before glory.

I thought the Reformed believed that one man plus the truth was a majority, not that the majority in error rules. Aside from that, is there some merit to saying that even though the justification for prohibiting instrumental accompaniment is unsound, we should restrict biblical liberty for the sake of peace? Whatever merits this argument may have had at the time accompanying instruments were introduced, and I recognize that it would have had some, it does not apply to the present situation when instumental accompaniment is already established as biblically legitimate in many churches.

In such contexts, the attempt to unbiblically limit Chrisitan freedom will simply add another worship war. I don't ask you to do something that you in conscience cannot do. I don't invade your churches and advocate or demand you conform to my reading of Scripture. But I am not going to create an unnecessary worship war in churches using instrumental accompanyment of sung praise by trying to eliminate accompanying instruments when I have no biblical grounds for doing so and if someone tries to impose such I would resist; for in my context such actions would be adding confusion not peace.

Sadly, this unity is hindered because Churches/elders/leadership have allowed the preferences of men to be included and expressed in the worship service from assembly to assembly. Where preferences are given the stage, there is no end to the "wars."

Unity and peace will be found when we get back to worshipping our Lord in the simple, but profound manner of singing His Word (the Psalms) in light of the glorious work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (without instruments because He is the final sacrifice).

All we are doing is allowing for a liberty that God has not prohibited. Christian churches/elders/leadership have simply recognized that we have liberty in this area to accompany sung worship with instruments in a manner that does not cause confusion. Churches who in practice abuse the freedom and create confusion (e.g., when guitars & drums are overamplified so that the congregation cannot hear the words it sings, or those using texts teaching unscriptural doctrine), need to be challenged on their practice, but they need to be called out on true biblical grounds not demonstrably unbiblical ones.

And just for the record I am not EP either. Since I am presently a citizen of heaven where other texts than the psalms are sung, I am going to sing any text that is either Scripture or doctrinally faithful to Scripture.

 

[R Harris]

We must realize that the use of instruments in worship is an overall new practice in light of the history of the Church. The introduction of instruments into worship is one of the roots to the awful "worship wars" we see today. Brothers, it is my prayer that our Lord will bring back the harmony we once had in the Church. I know He will answer that prayer ultimately, but I pray that we might see it even before glory.

Psalm 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity!

Sadly, this unity is hindered because Churches/elders/leadership have allowed the preferences of men to be included and expressed in the worship service from assembly to assembly. Where preferences are given the stage, there is no end to the "wars."

Unity and peace will be found when we get back to worshipping our Lord in the simple, but profound manner of singing His Word (the Psalms) in light of the glorious work of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (without instruments because He is the final sacrifice).

Well said, brother Steve. Amen.

I haven't taken the time to go through all 200 posts on this thread, so if this has already been mentioned, forgive me.

As Steve mentioned above, the use of instruments in the new covenant era did not come into popularity until the 19th century. So for basically 1700 years, musical instruments in worship was the exception, not the rule.

In fact, Rowland Ward of Australia did some research on the issue, and discovered that prior to the Pope's decree in 666 AD (Vitalius, I believe?), he could only find one recorded instance up to that time that a musical instrument had been used in worship - at a church in Spain, I believe, in the 5th century. Even after the Pope's decree, there was still only sparse use of them until I believe the 14th century. Then when the Reformation came along, the reformers threw them right back out.

I simply find it amazing that for essentially 1700 years, the NON-use of instruments in worship was considered a no-brainer by just about everyone; then in the mid to late 19th century (a very bad century for Christianity in many ways), all of that changed.

Now, here we are only 4 generations later, and discussion of instrumental usage in "mainstream" evangelical Christianity is a complete non-issue.

Does this not astonish anyone? Of course, several other well known examples of doctrinal deterioration could be cited in the last 130 years, but it truly is amazing that the instrument issue, along with other worship issues, has been so deeply buried.

 

[JoelYrick]

I have a question for both timmopussycat and panta. I've been following along with this thread and I haven't quite decided what your positions are regarding whether instruments are elements or circumstances.

At times, I've thought that you are saying that there are two separate elements involved here. One element is unaccompanied singing, the other is singing with instruments. The circumstance is similar to how often we administer sacraments and preach the Word. We have liberty to choose how often we sing with or without instruments because we aren't required to perform all elements in every stated worship service. This seems to be a rather novel approach.

The second solution is the more widely held one that instruments are circumstantial parts of worship. Singing is the element. I don't think you two are offering this as a solution, but at times it seems that you refer to this position.

Do you hold to one of these positions or have I unfairly described your arguments?

Please help clear this up, thanks!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Music is the element - singing is required, instruments are a recommended circumstance, based on practice and command.

 

[JoelYrick]

How can something only be a recommendation, if it is a command?