Beer, wine, and Church fund raising

[DeaconHardwick]

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

Sure there is a good reason for the use of alcohol.

The Lord's Supper is at least one.

I also think you need to reflect on the motivation for sobriety. Our motivation for righteousness is not "taste not, touch not" but the Gospel. The end of the Law is not reflected in your statement.

 

[Kevin]

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

Granted, I have just started my second whiskey & soda...so if you would like you can ignore everything else I have to say.

THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS TO DRINK BECAUSE THE WATER HAS BACTERIA!

It says to drink to make the heart glad. It says to drink because you are celebrating. It says to drink because you are sad. It says to drink to worship God. It says to drink to enjoy Gods blessings.

Nothing however, that I have ever found, about little paisley shaped creatures swimming in the cistern.

Enough already with the transplant of Muslem ethics into the Church of Jesus Christ. If you were googling "Dar El Islam" and stumbled across the PB you might want to try the back button.

**rant off**

BTW you should join the deacons forum. We are trying to get a conversation going about our calling over there. Welcome. We are always glad to see new members.

 

[moral necessity]

But I've concluded in my opinion it's about the same as a glutton over-eating the food and the church profiting from that. It becomes a personal responsibility issue at that point. Jesus didn't sin when he made the wine that I think some of those in attendance probably over-indulged in.

I think you found your answer here. It's socially acceptable to overeat, but not to overdrink; yet both are sin. So, why is the one shyed away from while the other is done as often as yard sales? It wouldn't surprise me if more leave events like this with bellies filled with food than with tolerances filled with alcohol. It shows that we often look at what offends culture more than what offends God.

Blessings!

 

[JBaldwin]

I would also add that there are no positive commands in the NT for churches to go out and seek money from the unbeliever to help with the ministry of the word, prayer and mercy to the poor.

I would suspect that the need for 'fundraising' stems from a lack of importance placed on tithing and giving and perhaps an overinflated budget.

I would add that need for fundraising also comes fear and lack of faith that God will provide for the needs of the church.

 

[Stephen]

I have heard that from others before and I have the same 'feeling' but is there any scriptural basis for this? Especially when you are providing goods / services for the money and not just passing the plate for a 'donation'?

Doesn't this fall into the same vein as a car wash for a youth fund-raiser? I know I have my thoughts on it, but where does Scripture side on this?

I think a case could be made that God's covenant people were the only ones required to make sacrifices and bring offerings. Neither were expected from the Gentiles. Paul appealed, commended and chastised churches for their giving, not unbelievers. Phil 4:18, 1 Cor. 16:3, 2 Cor. 9:5 come to mind.

I would also add that there are no positive commands in the NT for churches to go out and seek money from the unbeliever to help with the ministry of the word, prayer and mercy to the poor.

I would suspect that the need for 'fundraising' stems from a lack of importance placed on tithing and giving and perhaps an overinflated budget.

Usually Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not teach stewardship or kingdom work, so they usually have to raise money, especially through their casinos and gambling.

 

[BobVigneault]

Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

 

[Stephen]

Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

We often take the passage out of context that deals with the weaker brother. The weaker brother is not the one who is offended by your drinking alcohol or Jesus would have sinned.

 

[Herald]

Matt. 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Jesus made alcohol and he drank alcohol but he never sinned. He certainly caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.

There is no good reason for the use of alcohol. Though its use in moderation is not a sin, per se, if it causes our brother to stumble, it can be a sin. Its use was common in the Old Testament only because fermentation rid the liquids of bacteria, and we have no such issues today. "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18). "Do not be with heavy drinkers" (Prov. 23:20). "Do not be addicted to wine" (I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). "Do not linger long over wine" (Prov. 23:30). Given that intoxication can occur with as little as one or two drinks or one shot, the Christian is best advised to leave the use of alcohol to the heathen.

Bob, I think you meant to say Jesus NEVER caused people to stumble because he drank alcohol.

 

[BobVigneault]

No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.

 

[Pilgrim]

No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.

So, it's OK to drink alcohol as long as we're not stumbling?

By the way Re: previous post by Jaybird, it is Ouzo (ούζο), not Ouza, and it is an acquired taste.

 

[Herald]

No, I meant what I said. Those who called him a drunkard and a glutton were stumbling. Sober up Bill, it's only one in the afternoon.

"How dry I am. How dry I am. *hic* Nobody knows, how dry I am."