Beer, wine, and Church fund raising

[Seb]

My wife and I went to our local Greek Orthodox Church’s annual ‘Greek Glendi’ this past weekend.

It’s their yearly shindig and fund-raiser held on the grounds of the Church.

They had something like a flea market with lots of Greek food and goods for sell. The food was great, the culture was interesting, and the music with the traditional Greek dancing was a lot of fun to watch also.

Now, I’m no fan of Eastern Orthodox “Theology” whatsoever (Don’t get me started on their “Iconography” and Church traditions)

But as I was sitting there, staring at the two Budweiser trucks with draft taps on the side, along with the tables full of Greek wines and beer, for sell, I started thinking…

…”Is it okay for a Church to have a community fund raiser like this?” and if so…

…”Is it acceptable to sell wine and beer at that Church fund-raiser?”

I know that it’s fine to MODERATLY drink wine and beer, that’s not the issue. Something just doesn’t seem right to me about this, but I can’t put my finger on it.

So here’s the question:

Are my old SBC ‘Fundy’ ways of seeing things messing with me, or is there something scripturally wrong with all this?

Btw..I had a bottle of Greek beer (Mythos brand-with a little unicorn image on the bottle), it paired fantastically with the Greek Salad.

 

[Poimen]

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser as beer. That is a lie.

 

[Seb]

The Mythos was fantastic though. It's a Greek lager.

 

[Blue Tick]

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.

 

[Stephen]

Rev. Kok is right. Selling Budweiser is like selling water. What a ripoff that would be!

Budweiser beer tastes like water with a little taste added to it, so it is wrong to sell that stuff for profit. Now if you are talking about selling Guiness or a real nice lager, then it is perfectly fine. I think it is deplorable that anyone would drink Bud and try to pass if off as beer.

 

[Amazing Grace]

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.

Exactly. I would not be offended as a believer, but seriously offended as a beer drinker..

 

[Stephen]

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser and sell it as beer. That is a lie.

Exactly. I would not be offended as a believer, but seriously offended as a beer drinker..

 

[Stephen]

Ale! Ale! I like Ales! (repeat x 4 for effect)

I am in Bud Light, Miller Lite, Budweiser, Coors Light, etc. so on so forth country. It's terrible. Amber Bock is about the only bearable Beer on tap here. There's a new place in town that has New Belgium's Fat Tire, though.

I am not familiar with New Belgium, but I would be going to the next town to find a good beer.

 

[Seb]

Ale! Ale! I like Ales! (repeat x 4 for effect)

I've always been partial to George Killian's Red Ale myself.

So the opinions I'm hearing in this DEEP theological discourse is:

Community-wide Church Fund-raiser - No problem

Selling REAL beer and wine at said fund-raiser - No Problem

 

[Kevin]

No theological problem at all. May cause a cultural problem if you are in North America. However that does not mean we should not do it. As Islam advances in our culture it will be more important for us to openly promote the biblical view of wine, spirits & beer AS A CHURCH, not only as individuals. in my opinion.

 

[Stephen]

Steve, the Greek Orthodox churches know how to put on good events. The food is always fantastic and the events are always fun, especially for the family. I have no objection to a church having an event like this, especially if there is alcohol. I do not think that churches should use these events as fundraisers to raise money for the church. The Scriptures teach that the church and its ministry should be supported by the tithes and offerings of God's people. If a church wants to charge for an event like this to defray the cost of the food and drink that is fine, but not to raise money for its ministry and work. Certainly all forms of gambling and games of chance at church events should be avoided because this is a violation of the eighth commandment.

 

[Seb]

Certainly all forms of gambling and games of chance at church events should be avoided because this is a violation of the eighth commandment.

I failed to mention that part. They had a raffle also. $100 per ticket to win a Lexus or other cash prizes. They only had 1900 tickets for sell. We ran the numbers and figured they cleared $100,000 just from the raffle.

But now I'm wondering...is a raffle stealing?

Commandment VIII: “You shall not steal. Ex 20:15 (ESV)

 

[tcalbrecht]

No, it is not right for a church to sell Budweiser as beer. That is a lie.

 

[Davidius]

Are my old SBC ‘Fundy’ ways of seeing things messing with me[...]

Yep!

 

[Herald]

The dynamic of alcohol being sold at this festival is secondary. We had members of our church suggest fund raisers as a way of meeting our budget. I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world. We can't stop an unbeliever from putting a check into the offering plate but I am completely against soliciting from those who may be enemies of our Lord. I've heard the argument of, "Well Israel plundered the Egyptians before the Exodus.". The only problem with that is a little thing called context.

 

[Seb]

I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world[...]

I have heard that from others before and I have the same 'feeling' but is there any scriptural basis for this? Especially when you are providing goods / services for the money and not just passing the plate for a 'donation'?

Doesn't this fall into the same vein as a car wash for a youth fund-raiser? I know I have my thoughts on it, but where does Scripture side on this?

 

[Philbeck]

You should be appaled by Bud being sold for profit. Budweiser is an abuse of our ability to make beer.

 

[Herald]

You should be appaled by Bud being sold for profit. Budweiser is an abuse of our ability to make beer.

Budweiser is a horrible thing to do to water.

 

[Herald]

I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world[...]

I have heard that from others before and I have the same 'feeling' but is there any scriptural basis for this? Especially when you are providing goods / services for the money and not just passing the plate for a 'donation'?

Doesn't this fall into the same vein as a car wash for a youth fund-raiser? I know I have my thoughts on it, but where does Scripture side on this?

I think a case could be made that God's covenant people were the only ones required to make sacrifices and bring offerings. Neither were expected from the Gentiles. Paul appealed, commended and chastised churches for their giving, not unbelievers. Phil 4:18, 1 Cor. 16:3, 2 Cor. 9:5 come to mind.

 

[KMK]

I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world[...]

I have heard that from others before and I have the same 'feeling' but is there any scriptural basis for this? Especially when you are providing goods / services for the money and not just passing the plate for a 'donation'?

Doesn't this fall into the same vein as a car wash for a youth fund-raiser? I know I have my thoughts on it, but where does Scripture side on this?

I think a case could be made that God's covenant people were the only ones required to make sacrifices and bring offerings. Neither were expected from the Gentiles. Paul appealed, commended and chastised churches for their giving, not unbelievers. Phil 4:18, 1 Cor. 16:3, 2 Cor. 9:5 come to mind.

I would also add that there are no positive commands in the NT for churches to go out and seek money from the unbeliever to help with the ministry of the word, prayer and mercy to the poor.

I would suspect that the need for 'fundraising' stems from a lack of importance placed on tithing and giving and perhaps an overinflated budget.

 

[N. Eshelman]

A couple of things:

1. What biblical basis would you see this being sinful?
2. If it was sinful, the fact that you purchased and consumed a beer there makes you guilty as well

I have no problem with this. I think that the church needs to get beyond some of this extra-biblical piety. It is unhelpful.

 

[jaybird0827]

No ouza???

 

[Seb]

A couple of things:

1. What biblical basis would you see this being sinful?
2. If it was sinful, the fact that you purchased and consumed a beer there makes you guilty as well

I have no problem with this. I think that the church needs to get beyond some of this extra-biblical piety. It is unhelpful.

So you don't a problem with the fund-raiser nor the beverages?

I'll admit my initial knee jerk reaction was against the beer and wine, even though I drink a little myself. I thought what if someone gets drunk and the church makes money from that? (There's that fundy in me)

But I've concluded in my opinion it's about the same as a glutton over-eating the food and the church profiting from that. It becomes a personal responsibility issue at that point. Jesus didn't sin when he made the wine that I think some of those in attendance probably over-indulged in.

 

[Seb]

No ouza???

They probably had some, but I don't think that's my kind of thing.

Anise-flavored liqueur just doesn't sound good to me.

 

[Amazing Grace]

No ouza???

They probably had some, but I don't think that's my kind of thing.

Anise-flavored liqueur just doesn't sound good to me.

Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap. If I am feeling fiesty, then the Sambucca comes out

 

[PilgrimPastor]

The dynamic of alcohol being sold at this festival is secondary. We had members of our church suggest fund raisers as a way of meeting our budget. I am not in favor of Christ's church soliciting money from the world. We can't stop an unbeliever from putting a check into the offering plate but I am completely against soliciting from those who may be enemies of our Lord. I've heard the argument of, "Well Israel plundered the Egyptians before the Exodus.". The only problem with that is a little thing called context.

I was the Pastor of a church which (unbeknownst to me prior to some time spent with them) had written fund raising (bake sale) money into their budget. At the first bake sale the church had after my moving to serve them I asked the naive question, "what are we raising money for?" They said "your salary!" WOW was I concerned. It is unhealthy on so many levels, Scripturally, community image, etc. when a church abandons the Scriptural teaching to support its ministry from within by way of tithes and offerings.

I lived for a couple of years in Tarpon Springs, Florida where there is a large Greek population and a large cathedral. Was this festival in Tarpon Springs?

 

[Seb]

Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap.

Coffee as a nightcap? Man, that's hardcore!

[...]Was this festival in Tarpon Springs?

No, but I've heard of that one. From what I understand that area has a lot of retired Greek sponge divers.

The one we went to was at St Barbara's Greek Orthodox in Sarasota. They had a HUGE turn out over a four day period. There were at least three Greyhound type buses shuttling people back and forth all day to off site parking.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I do and I don't have a problem with the idea.

I've attended events like this before. Beautiful Church in Northern VA. The event was more of a "let the community in to see what we're about..." kind of thing. I imagine they probably made a profit on the event but that wasn't the reason for it. I loved the Greek food and music.

I agree with Bill and others that a Church's work ought to be supported by its members. People asking for the "thou shall" or "thou shall not" are asking the wrong questions with regard to the principle. The Church should be taken care of itself from within and there are both preceptive ideas in the OT law as well as the idea of caring for the poor and pastors in the NT.

As to the "outreach" kind of idea, I don't think a Church's members ought to have a problem with inviting people "in the world" to have some fun with them in an extra-Church activity like a picnic. In our OPC in SoCal one year we submitted an article to a local newspaper announcing our Reformation Day party we'd be having. We yearly got dressed up like Puritans or Reformers on Oct 31st and had food and fun together. I even performed a puppet show for the kids. Friends and neighbors from the community were invited to join us. We didn't charge anything for the event but I'm simply expressing that the basic idea of inviting the community to a meal and other kinds of activities is simply a form of hospitality and there's nothing wrong with that basic idea.

 

[jaybird0827]

...
Anisette with my coffee every night as a night cap. ...

A man after my own heart! And nothing like a shot of anisette to chase down the valerian capsules.

 

[Herald]

I do and I don't have a problem with the idea.

I've attended events like this before. Beautiful Church in Northern VA. The event was more of a "let the community in to see what we're about..." kind of thing. I imagine they probably made a profit on the event but that wasn't the reason for it. I loved the Greek food and music.

I agree with Bill and others that a Church's work ought to be supported by its members. People asking for the "thou shall" or "thou shall not" are asking the wrong questions with regard to the principle. The Church should be taken care of itself from within and there are both preceptive ideas in the OT law as well as the idea of caring for the poor and pastors in the NT.

As to the "outreach" kind of idea, I don't think a Church's members ought to have a problem with inviting people "in the world" to have some fun with them in an extra-Church activity like a picnic. In our OPC in SoCal one year we submitted an article to a local newspaper announcing our Reformation Day party we'd be having. We yearly got dressed up like Puritans or Reformers on Oct 31st and had food and fun together. I even performed a puppet show for the kids. Friends and neighbors from the community were invited to join us. We didn't charge anything for the event but I'm simply expressing that the basic idea of inviting the community to a meal and other kinds of activities is simply a form of hospitality and there's nothing wrong with that basic idea.

Rich, I'm glad you added the part about outreach to the community. I support that type of activity. My objection is when activities are used to solicit funds. We have something to GIVE THEM - the gospel!