Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Is there such a thing as a wise turk?
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Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Is there such a thing as a wise turk?
Originally posted by Bladestunner316
If we dont let a wise turk govern the church why should we let him govern the land?
blade
Originally posted by Bladestunner316
If we dont let a wise turk govern the church why should we let him govern the land?
blade
Originally posted by Paul manata
***OFFTRACK**
Hey Bradford,
A Goverment dispenses with punishment (that's not all they do, but that's one thing; i.e., to bear the sword). Now, I'm rusty, but does natural law teach 10 years or 50 years as the punishment of, say, rape?
Originally posted by Paul manata
***OFFTRACK**
Hey Bradford,
A Goverment dispenses with punishment (that's not all they do, but that's one thing; i.e., to bear the sword). Now, I'm rusty, but does natural law teach 10 years or 50 years as the punishment of, say, rape?
Deut 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Originally posted by Paul manata
***OFFTRACK**
Hey Bradford,
A Goverment dispenses with punishment (that's not all they do, but that's one thing; i.e., to bear the sword). Now, I'm rusty, but does natural law teach 10 years or 50 years as the punishment of, say, rape?
Let me step in here Paul.
It depends if the Magistrate is merciful, left to his own understanding, totally reprobate, or perverted himself or itself. What would you do if left in a natural state? I tend to believe if they have any knowledge they would rule in a faulty way examining the outcomes. i.e. If someone they knew was raped it would influence them one way. If they knew the one doing the rape another. It's all natural....if you are looking at it naturally.
huh?
Were you defending or arguing against natural law (whatever that is, since that phrase has been used for radically different meanings)?
Originally posted by Paul manata
***OFFTRACK**
Hey Bradford,
A Goverment dispenses with punishment (that's not all they do, but that's one thing; i.e., to bear the sword). Now, I'm rusty, but does natural law teach 10 years or 50 years as the punishment of, say, rape?
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Originally posted by Paul manata
***OFFTRACK**
Hey Bradford,
A Goverment dispenses with punishment (that's not all they do, but that's one thing; i.e., to bear the sword). Now, I'm rusty, but does natural law teach 10 years or 50 years as the punishment of, say, rape?
Are we way off topic here or what?
we're lost and only a moderator can bring us back to civilization.
[Edited on 7-19-2005 by Paul manata]
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
I found a very interesting book on this subject at the Metropolitan Tabernacle Bookshop in London:-
'Baptism: Archaeological, Historical, Biblical' by F.M.Buhler (Joshua Press: ISBN 1-894400-20-8 ). Forword by Michael Haykin.
Buhler is/was an archaeologist by profession and also Pastor of Mulhouse Evangelical Baptist Church, France. He comments on a number of baptistries found in Roman houses, particularly the House of the Christians in Doura-Europos in Syria. This is a 1st Century house, which had been turned into a Christian meeting place in the 3rd Century. It contained a baptistry, which was dismantled transported and moved to the Art Gallery (?!) of Yale University, so some of you guys can check it out.
There are other baptistries found in various parts of the old Roman Empire, but this one is the oldest found so far.
Buhler also comments upon the evidence of iconography. Up until the 12th Century, in representations of His baptism, Christ id depicted with the water up to His, hips, waist or even HIs neck. This can only refer to baptism by immersion. From the 13th Century, Christ is represented with water up to the knees, up to half-calf or even only up to the ankle. JTB is then shown as pouring water on our Lord's head, often by means of a scallop shell.
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
I found a very interesting book on this subject at the Metropolitan Tabernacle Bookshop in London:-
'Baptism: Archaeological, Historical, Biblical' by F.M.Buhler (Joshua Press: ISBN 1-894400-20-8 ). Forword by Michael Haykin.
Buhler is/was an archaeologist by profession and also Pastor of Mulhouse Evangelical Baptist Church, France. He comments on a number of baptistries found in Roman houses, particularly the House of the Christians in Doura-Europos in Syria. This is a 1st Century house, which had been turned into a Christian meeting place in the 3rd Century. It contained a baptistry, which was dismantled transported and moved to the Art Gallery (?!) of Yale University, so some of you guys can check it out.
There are other baptistries found in various parts of the old Roman Empire, but this one is the oldest found so far.
Buhler also comments upon the evidence of iconography. Up until the 12th Century, in representations of His baptism, Christ id depicted with the water up to His, hips, waist or even HIs neck. This can only refer to baptism by immersion. From the 13th Century, Christ is represented with water up to the knees, up to half-calf or even only up to the ankle. JTB is then shown as pouring water on our Lord's head, often by means of a scallop shell.
Further to this, I have just spent a holiday in Hungary and spent some time in the historic town of Eger. They are excavating the remains of an old 10th Century church there, which was destroyed by Genghis Khan's Mongols in the 12th Century. When they dug out the foundations, guess what they found? Yep! A baptistry.
Grace & Peace,
Martin
Originally posted by Martin Marprelate
Nope!
It was positively mansized !
Martin
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
Bottom line is: we presbyterians care far less about the mode than about the meaning, notwithstanding that sprinkling or pouring best accords (by our reckoning) with the biblical data, representing ceremonial cleansing and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by Paul manata
I frankly don't see the relevence.
Originally posted by Paul manata
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
Originally posted by Paul manata
I frankly don't see the relevence.
That is because there is none.
Oh, so there's no relevence to your "early baptismal" points. I think I can live with that.
Originally posted by Paul manata
Huh? That's cool, I guess.... Which paedo's? How do they talk? Why would you think this? Maybe you could cite paedo's and then draw inferences from their "talk" showing how "they way" they "talked" implied that we should be "surpirsed" to "find a full sized Baptismal?" If you can't do this, then I re-assert that I don't see the relevence. Actually, I think this whole Baptismal thing is simply a subjective way that Baptists try and convince themselves that beleivers baptism is correct.
So, what is the relevence???
Also, it sounds funny, you know, what you said. Funny because creationists always say that the way evolutionists talk we should "find millions of transitional fossils in the fossil record." Are you treating us paedos like evolutionists???
Agamemnon was baptized; Bacchus was baptized; Cupid was baptized; Cleinian was baptized; Alexander was baptized; Panthia was baptized; Otho was baptized; Charicles was baptized; and a host of others were baptized, each differing from the other in the nature or the mode, or both.
A blind man could more readily select any demanded color from the spectrum, or a child could more readily thread the Cretan Labyrinth, than could 'the seven wise men of Greece' declare the nature, or mode, of any given baptism by the naked help of baptizo.
... WHATEVER IS CAPABLE OF THOROUGHLY CHANGING THE CHARACTER, STATE, OR CONDITION OF ANY OBJECT, IS CAPABLE OF BAPTIZING THAT OBJECT: AND BY SUCH CHANGE OF CHARACTER, STATE, OR CONDITION DOES, IN FACT, BAPTIZE IT.
Originally posted by Paul manata
now all you need to do is *prove* that paedobaptists wouldn't have had a "baptistry" in their Church.
BAPTISM IN THE EARLY CHURCH by Hendrik Stander and Johannes Louw ?
A little earlier than that, I think.Its not until post-anabaptism that we begin to have a "controversy" surrounding mode.