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Sam Jer

Puritan Board Junior
”The Lord tells them of the inheritance he has provided for his Israel. They are to walk on the banks of streams whose verdant banks are fed upon by flocks and herds; and in climbing their rocks they are to find honey flowing forth for their use. "Milk and honey" are representatives of all abundance. It is a land which the Lord is not ashamed to give them. (Heb. 11:16.) But here they are to walk in holiness—separated from other people. The former inhabitants were "abhorred" by the Lord for their sins; they are to be loved, and to love in return. Israel's land is to be a theatre whereon heavenly character and heavenly joy shall be displayed, and the eye of the Lord shall look with delight on holy deeds and holy desires. All this is to be produced by their being made to feel free grace and flowing love. They do not get the land on conditions. It is given freely; and, being given, they are then commanded to be holy. The God of grace is visibly at work here—placing them in the midst of blessing, and then saying, "Now wilt thou surely love me." "He first loved us!" must be the spring of Israel's obedience. What strength there must be in that spring! It is sufficient to counteract all the sinful propensities of Canaan! Sinai's loud thunder failed, but the silent love of Zion overcomes!”

~ Andrew Bonar, "A Commentary on the Book of Leviticus”, Chapter 20.
 
"They do not get the land on conditions."

Tell that to the first generation, and those who were exiled.

Let me add that I think this is an issue of covenant theology. I want to be careful with how I say this, since it has been a while since I last took a very serious consideration of this topic, but just like the land, the covenant of grace, as an external covenant, is not necessarily gotten on conditions. You can be born into it, or join it by false profession. But once in it, there are demands and conditions - faith and repentance - and if you fail those, you will be exiled from the land as it were, cut off from the covenant, hewn down and cast into the fire; if not in this life, then in the next. Of course, you do not keep these conditions by your own streangth, nor can you, but it is God which makes one both will and do according to his good pleasure.


Something that was very helpful for me in understanding the Reformed view of this is having read Thomas Blakes "Vindiciae Foederis; or, A Treatise of the Covenant of God Entered with Mankind".
Availble here - https://www.puritanpublications.com/product/the-covenant-of-god-thomas-blake-1597-1657/
And here - https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A28344.0001.001/1:8?rgn=div1;view=toc
 
Let me add that I think this is an issue of covenant theology. I want to be careful with how I say this, since it has been a while since I last took a very serious consideration of this topic, but just like the land, the covenant of grace, as an external covenant, is not necessarily gotten on conditions. You can be born into it, or join it by false profession. But once in it, there are demands and conditions - faith and repentance - and if you fail those, you will be exiled from the land as it were, cut off from the covenant, hewn down and cast into the fire; if not in this life, then in the next. Of course, you do not keep these conditions by your own streangth, nor can you, but it is God which makes one both will and do according to his good pleasure.


Something that was very helpful for me in understanding the Reformed view of this is having read Thomas Blakes "Vindiciae Foederis; or, A Treatise of the Covenant of God Entered with Mankind".
Availble here - https://www.puritanpublications.com/product/the-covenant-of-god-thomas-blake-1597-1657/
And here - https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A28344.0001.001/1:8?rgn=div1;view=toc

Can someone have freely-given salvation firmly in hand (that is, justification and forgiveness of sins) and then lose it by not continuing to meet the requisite conditions?
 
Can someone have freely-given salvation firmly in hand (that is, justification and forgiveness of sins) and then lose it by not continuing to meet the requisite conditions?
That's the wrong question. Would God allow one of his covenant children, to whom he has made all the promises in scripture, to not meet the requisite conditions? Would he allow one of his own to be ultimately devoid of the Spirit's working?

If the procurement of salvation is not ours, neither is its maintenance.
 
To defend Bonar -- he was only setting forth the ideal. As when a Christian pastor preaches God has loved us; we love in consequence. It presupposes certain things related to the doctrines of grace. It obviously does not address the reality that a person may not genuinely have received God's love in the first place. For the elect in Israel there could be no idea that they did something to get the land. It is everywhere referred to as the land promised to the fathers and given to them. Once again in discussions like these we need to have the perspective given by the Scriptures themselves, They are not all Israel which are of Israel, or, What is the chaff to the wheat? or, Paul's answer to the question, What if some did not believe? The reprobate should not define the nature of the covenant. It is made with the elect.
 
No, it's really not, given the prerequisites he laid out. Namely, "you can be born into it, or join it by false profession."
Can someone have freely-given salvation firmly in hand (that is, justification and forgiveness of sins) and then lose it by not continuing to meet the requisite conditions?

A fuller quotation of what I said is: "the covenant of grace, as an external covenant, is not necessarily gotten on conditions. You can be born into it, or join it by false profession."
Joining by falae profession, or natural birth alone, does not give the benefits you named.
Thomas Blake, in the book I recommended to mr. Adams, is actually arguing that the covenant properly speaking is the external covenant (though he does not of course deny the inward reality).
 
Fair enough, since I deny that there's any such thing "an external covenant" in any meaningful sense.
Is that the standard baptist view?

Sound very difficult to justify biblically but I'll admit that I have not studied Baptist views of the covenant nearly as much as the Presbyterian view (and even there, there is more that could be desired).
 
The exile(s) is not based on a republication of a covenant of works (otherwise Israel would be totally wiped out at Golden calf).

But exile is the equivalent of church discipline>excommunication. A person/church in a professing state of grace can be exiled by God. See also the churches in Revelation who were being threatened with 'exile'.
 
What would the Baptist interpretation of Romans 9:6 be? That seems to me to be fairly clear indication of an external/internal distinction in the covenant.

The very short answer, Romans 9:6 contrasts the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, not the Covenant of Grace (external) with the Covenant of Grace (internal).

For a more thorough treatment, see the linked article below. It's a semi-lengthy read, but a worthwhile one.

 
Ooof, that's a long post. But thank you for directing me to it. I shall read it when the opportunity presents itself.
 
Hello Efraim,

When the LORD gave eretz Yisrael to His Old Testament people, was it not to the true remnant of them – the elect? That seed through which Messiah would come?

And what would one say when Jehovah completely removed them off the land to be held captive in Babylon 70 years?

What does Bonar' commentary say of Leviticus 26:33 and following ("I will scatter you among the heathen . . . etc")? And in Lev 26:44, 45, when He "remembers the covenant of their ancestors"?

In Matthew 21:43 KJV, when Jesus / YHWH says to the chief priests and elders of Israel (for their apostasy), "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", does this not make clear the covenant with Israel was annulled, and as a geopolitical nation and people there is no longer a ‘covenant’ entity called Israel. The present State of Israel is not the covenant nation, which should be obvious to those who behold it, and who know God’s word.

When Peter, in Acts 3:22-23 KJV, says (reiterating Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 KJV), "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people" – this makes clear, then, that 1) the elect remnant needs to be precisely defined; and 2) Israel needs to be precisely defined.

Tha "Land" issue also needs to be defined, as what is being given to elect Israel, is not only the territory in the middle east, but all the earth in the age to come.
______

But now I see that Sean, using Brandon Adams' work, is seeking to resuscitate an old issue once dealt with in the thread, Critique of Reformed Baptist Covenant Theology and Biblical Theology (Renihan). And, in effect, hijacking this thread.

If Efraim consents to allow this really inappropriate hijack, okay, that's his call. Just let it be said the sort of exegesis Adams engages in in his essay, "They are not all Israel, who are of Israel (Rom 9:6)", is, as the same view mentioned just above (Renihan), indicative of the tortuous lengths this version of antipaedobaptist polemic goes to in attempting to subvert standard Reformed covenant theology. @Ploutos
 
Hello Efraim,

When the LORD gave eretz Yisrael to His Old Testament people, was it not to the true remnant of them – the elect? That seed through which Messiah would come?

And what would one say when Jehovah completely removed them off the land to be held captive in Babylon 70 years?

What does Bonar' commentary say of Leviticus 26:33 and following ("I will scatter you among the heathen . . . etc")? And in Lev 26:44, 45, when He "remembers the covenant of their ancestors"?

In Matthew 21:43 KJV, when Jesus / YHWH says to the chief priests and elders of Israel (for their apostasy), "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", does this not make clear the covenant with Israel was annulled, and as a geopolitical nation and people there is no longer a ‘covenant’ entity called Israel. The present State of Israel is not the covenant nation, which should be obvious to those who behold it, and who know God’s word.

When Peter, in Acts 3:22-23 KJV, says (reiterating Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 KJV), "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people" – this makes clear, then, that 1) the elect remnant needs to be precisely defined; and 2) Israel needs to be precisely defined.

Tha "Land" issue also needs to be defined, as what is being given to elect Israel, is not only the territory in the middle east, but all the earth in the age to come.
______
I think you misunderstood the point of the original post, though you are bringing up a potentially important component of the conversation.

Lord willing, I will answer your post, which I merely skimmed, for real when I finnish the evening shift, or if I am too tired, tommorow.

But now I see that Sean, using Brandon Adams' work, is seeking to resuscitate an old issue once dealt with in the thread, Critique of Reformed Baptist Covenant Theology and Biblical Theology (Renihan). And, in effect, hijacking this thread.

If Efraim consents to allow this really inappropriate hijack, okay, that's his call. Just let it be said the sort of exegesis Adams engages in in his essay, "They are not all Israel, who are of Israel (Rom 9:6)", is, as the same view mentioned just above (Renihan), indicative of the tortuous lengths this version of antipaedobaptist polemic goes to in attempting to subvert standard Reformed covenant theology. @Ploutos
I don't think the discussion being had here can qualify as hijacking. They brought alive a thread I expected to be read by a few people and that that would be that, and they did so by discussing what I see as the main point, or at least an aspect of it. Edit: I am not sure I correctly unerrstood who you say is hijacking what,

I may retract any part of this reply after a more thorough reading and consideration of your post. I just did not want it to stifle the existing conversation, but I did not want anyone to think I am ignoring your points either.
 
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You're welcome!
@SeanPatrickCornell - I just finished reading the blog post. Thanks for sending that my way. Please tell me if I am correctly understanding Brandon's core point. He seems to be arguing that there are two totally separate, distinct covenants in the OT: the utilitarian covenant of service made with ethnic Israel, and then the covenant of salvation made with the elect. Where paedobaptists would view this as one covenant with an external/internal distinction, he sees these as being totally different and unrelated covenants. Am I on target there?

A second question. You mention this article as expounding what you call the standard Baptist view - presumably, the standard Reformed Baptist view. But he disagrees with Piper and Schreiner on this passage. I don't know the Baptist world all that well, but I know that Piper and Schreiner are well-known figures ; so I have to wonder - is it accurate to call Brandon's view the standard Baptist view?
 
58 “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, 59 then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. 60 And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. 62 Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.


64 “And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and at evening you shall say, ‘If only it were morning!’ because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. 68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”

(Deuteronomy 28:58–68, ESV)
 
Hello Efraim,

When the LORD gave eretz Yisrael to His Old Testament people, was it not to the true remnant of them – the elect? That seed through which Messiah would come?

And what would one say when Jehovah completely removed them off the land to be held captive in Babylon 70 years?
Yes, kind of. I mean, the whole discussion being had here is why they were in the land and why they were taken out and the general application of that to the covenant of grace.

I do wonder though, why did you feel the need to transliterate "the Land of Israel"? There is no need to add transliterations in place of terms that we have in English. You are the last person I'd expect that sort of thing from.

What does Bonar' commentary say of Leviticus 26:33 and following ("I will scatter you among the heathen . . . etc")? And in Lev 26:44, 45, when He "remembers the covenant of their ancestors"?
You can get his commentary for free off monergism and check ;)
I am still in chapter 20. You may notice it is not even close to the first quotation from this commentary I post here, but rather the one that by God's providence begun a larger, and quite interesting and helpful, conversation. I post these as I find helpful, encouraging or otherwise edifying things in this book, which necessarily means you cannot address to myself every qestion you would ask Bonar if he said this in an ordination exam.

In Matthew 21:43 KJV, when Jesus / YHWH says to the chief priests and elders of Israel (for their apostasy), "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof", does this not make clear the covenant with Israel was annulled, and as a geopolitical nation and people there is no longer a ‘covenant’ entity called Israel. The present State of Israel is notthe covenant nation, which should be obvious to those who behold it, and who know God’s word.
Agreed (though methinks it is technically right to call the church, which is indeed a covenant entity, "Israel").

When Peter, in Acts 3:22-23 KJV, says (reiterating Moses in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 KJV), "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people" – this makes clear, then, that 1) the elect remnant needs to be precisely defined; and 2) Israel needs to be precisely defined.
Again, agreed.

Tha "Land" issue also needs to be defined, as what is being given to elect Israel, is not only the territory in the middle east, but all the earth in the age to come.
I have heard this before, and if my early waking time today is not completely muddying my memory it is stated somewhere in the new testament, and it is coming into clearer focus to me with this thread aong other factors, but I would still not be able to fully explain or defend this view.

But now I see that Sean, using Brandon Adams' work, is seeking to resuscitate an old issue once dealt with in the thread, Critique of Reformed Baptist Covenant Theology and Biblical Theology (Renihan). And, in effect, hijacking this thread.


If Efraim consents to allow this really inappropriate hijack, okay, that's his call. Just let it be said the sort of exegesis Adams engages in in his essay, "They are not all Israel, who are of Israel (Rom 9:6)", is, as the same view mentioned just above (Renihan), indicative of the tortuous lengths this version of antipaedobaptist polemic goes to in attempting to subvert standard Reformed covenant theology. @Ploutos
I have not read the Baptist article linked here, though the premise summarised here sounds odd & forced at best. To the extent in furthers the earlier conversation on the conditions of the covenant and relation of the external administration of it and internal reality, I don't mind.

58 “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, 59 then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. 60 And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. 62 Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. 63 And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.


64 “And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and at evening you shall say, ‘If only it were morning!’ because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. 68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”

(Deuteronomy 28:58–68, ESV)
What are you replying to? Who are you replying to? Which part of the conversation do these curses on covenant brakers have a relevance to?
 
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Where paedobaptists would view this as one covenant with an external/internal distinction, he sees these as being totally different and unrelated covenants. Am I on target there?
I think you are spot on. I’ve regularly heard some confessional baptists who embrace that federalism as saying OT saints were “in two covenants : the Abrahamic (or mosaic, etc) and the new covenant.” Suggesting that the non elect were only ever under the historical covenant - namely the Abrahamic (or mosaic, etc). And as far as I can tell, the ordinances pertain to the historical covenant - never to the CoG. (For clarity, they would say the ordinances of the NT of course pertain to the New Covenant but in the OT circumcision and sacrifices for example “primarily” refer to the physical people and the physical land, etc).

Edit: further elaboration
 
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Perhaps we Presbyterians should not be defending Bonar's words too woodenly. I am not too sure his general point is wounded by this, and those already born in Israel after Joshua certainly did not need to fulfil certain conditions to recieve it, but Numbers does say ”And, behold, ye are risen up in your fathers' stead, an increase of sinful men, to augment yet the fierce anger of the LORD toward Israel. For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.” (Nu. 32:14-15)

I don't quite know what implications this has on the conversation and on Bonar's comments, but it defenitely has some. What think ye, fellow Presbyterians? Does this help the baptist case? Does this have a bearing on Bonar's talk of the land in this passage?
 
I will quote from and comment upon the Adams essay Sean introduced into our discussion.

Adams, in his lengthy essay, quotes J. Cotrell:

The only approach to Romans 9 that truly addresses the issue of God’s righteousness as it relates to ethnic Israel is that the election spoken of in verses 7–18 is election to service. Paul’s thesis is that God’s word of promise to Israel has not failed (Rom. 9:6a). Why not? The answer is Romans 9:6b (NASB), “For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” Here Paul is not distinguishing between two groups within Israel, the saved and the lost, with the ensuing discussion focusing on how God unconditionally makes the distinction. Rather, the contrast is of a different sort altogether. There are two groups, but they are not completely distinct from each other. One is actually inside the other, as a smaller body within a larger body. Both groups are called Israel, but they are different kinds of Israel. The larger one is ethnic Israel, the physical nation as a whole; the smaller belongs to this group but is also distinguished from it as a separate entity, i.e., as the true spiritual Israel, the remnant of true believers who enjoy the blessings of eternal salvation.

But the contrast between these two Israels is not that one is saved while the other is lost. This cannot be, since the smaller (saved) group is also a part of the larger body. What is the difference between these two Israels, and why does Paul even bring it up here? The key difference is that God’s covenant promises to these two groups are not the same. The promises God made to ethnic Israel are different from the promises he has made to spiritual Israel. Paul is saying, in effect, “You think God has been unfair to ethnic Israel because all Jews are not saved? Don’t you know there are two Israels, each with a different set of promises? You are actually confusing these two Israels. You are taking the salvation promises that apply only to the smaller group and are mistakenly trying to apply them to Israel as a whole.”

Here is the point: there are two “chosen peoples,” two Israels; but only remnant Israel has been chosen for salvation. Contrary to what the Jews commonly thought, ethnic Israel as a whole was not chosen for salvation but for service. God’s covenant promises to physical Israel as such had to do only with the role of the nation in God’s historical plan of redemption. Their election was utilitarian, not redemptive. God chose them to serve a purpose. The Jews themselves thought that this election involved the promise of salvation for individuals, but they were simply mistaken. This same mistake lies at the root of the Calvinist view that the election in Romans 9 is election to salvation.

Jack W. Cotrell (2006-11-01). Perspectives on Election


--------

Adams: ‘After establishing all of these points, Paul then applies the double meaning of the terms children of flesh and children of promise. “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.” (v28) Note that “children of promise” is being used in two different senses. The first sense (v23) referred to the historical narrative of Isaac’s birth as a fulfillment of God’s promise to give Abraham a physical offspring. The second sense refers to eternal salvation as a fulfillment of God’s promise to give Abraham a spiritual offspring (as Paul just established in 3:29).’

Adams continues: ‘Romans 9:14-23 then addresses the objection that is raised against God’s sovereign election – both “to service” and “to salvation.” v24-33 then return to the question of Israel’s salvation where he demonstrates the Israel that will be saved is the Israel chosen by God “not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.” Just as “the children of promise” has a double meaning, so too does “Israel.” There is a typological (“my countrymen according to the flesh”) and an anti-typological (“even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles”) Israel. Therefore “[T]hey are not all Israel who are of Israel.” Paul continues his argument through chapter 11, concluding that “all Israel will be saved”

In case anyone missed this (just above), Adams is claiming that “[T]hey are not all Israel who are of Israel” means that there are Gentiles now “of Israel”, not that “not all Israel are truly of Israel” but unelect Jews are within Israel.

A significant error here, which he begins to build upon!

Ιn Cotrell’s quote it is stated,

“Here is the point: there are two ‘chosen peoples,’ two Israels; but only remnant Israel has been chosen for salvation. Contrary to what the Jews commonly thought, ethnic Israel as a whole was not chosen for salvation but for service. God’s covenant promises to physical Israel as such had to do only with the role of the nation in God’s historical plan of redemption. Their election was utilitarian, not redemptive. God chose them to serve a purpose. The Jews themselves thought that this election involved the promise of salvation for individuals, but they were simply mistaken. This same mistake lies at the root of the Calvinist view that the election in Romans 9 is election to salvation.”

Steve speaking:
So here we have an eisegesis of sorts being thrust into the plain meaning of Scripture: there are two elect Israels, the “remnant Israel has been chosen for salvation” while the “physical Israels” “election was utilitarian, not redemptive. God chose them to serve a purpose.”

Adams says, “I completely agree with Cotrell’s criticism of the typical Calvinist misreading of Romans 9 and with what he has said about the Abrahamic Covenant.” Then, in the same breath, Adams says, “Of course, he is wrong in the rest of his exegesis”. We see this picking and choosing in Adams’ essay again and again, so that we are not dealing with a simple, clear exposition, but a convoluted mish-mash of quotes – anything to serve the purpose of attempting to throw off the “typical Calvinist misreading”.

And we get to the raison d’être of Adams’ essay: “Many Calvinists have simply missed this clear and historic explanation of Romans 9 because they have been too eager to use it as a proof-text for infant baptism…”.

Adams finishes quoting Louis Berkhof with this: “The promises of God are given to the seed of believers collectively, and not individually. God’s promise to continue His covenant and to bring it to full realization in the children of believers, does not mean that He will endow every last one of them with saving faith. And if some of them continue in unbelief, we shall have to bear in mind what Paul says in Rom. 9:6-8. They are not all Israel who are of Israel; the children of believers are not all children of promise. Hence it is necessary to remind even children of the covenant constantly of the necessity of regeneration and conversion. The mere fact that one is in the covenant does not carry with it the assurance of salvation.”

Such unelect children may “legally” be counted among the elect, but are not actually so. For the sake of the elect all our children are baptized.

I quote from the “Renihan” thread referred to above (post # 58) :

I attach a link to a pamphlet by David Engelsma, which broaches this topic: The Covenant of God and the Children of Believers. Here’s a quote from it:

“It is the covenantal election of God that determines the viewpoint that believing parents and church take toward the children and that governs the approach in rearing them. We do not view them as unsaved heathens (‘little vipers’), though there may well be vipers among them, any more than we view the congregation as a gathering of unbelievers because of the presence of unbelievers among the saints. But we view them as children of God.

God realizes his covenant in the line of generations. He gathers his church from age to age from the children of believers. As the Puritans were fond of saying, ‘God casts the line of election in the loins of godly parents.’ For the sake of the elect children, all are baptized.” [Emphasis added]​
 
Those who find this discussion – and my refutations of the 1689 Federalists – of interest, may find my extended refutation, and explication of the PRCA view (in the earlier thread) edifying. Start with post # 58 (on page two of that thread) until the end. A lot of it is applicable to the present matter.
 
A second question. You mention this article as expounding what you call the standard Baptist view - presumably, the standard Reformed Baptist view. But he disagrees with Piper and Schreiner on this passage. I don't know the Baptist world all that well, but I know that Piper and Schreiner are well-known figures ; so I have to wonder - is it accurate to call Brandon's view the standard Baptist view?
Neither would claim the Second London Confession.
 
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