A President Who Believes in Dispensationalism
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raekwon
Puritan Board Junior
Interesting question. I think that the US' policies and actions regarding Israel and the Middle East owe themselves to a sort of de facto dispensationalism, but I think things could potentially be drastically different if we had a president (or other highly influential official) who was astute enough -- though wrong -- to actually know and believe dispensationalism.
Scott1
Puritanboard Commissioner
Chances are they would be broadly evangelical, probably fundamentalist leaning at least, likely a believer who accepted the authority of Scripture. In itself, that would be very good to have a believing President who accepted the authority of Scripture. Would that only that were true now.
Would it affect foreign policy with Israel? Perhaps. Often evangelicals support Israel for spiritual reasons. You likely find reformed who support Israel for political, economic and social justice reasons.
I once heard a (broadly evangelical) brother say God has preserved the United States to export the gospel and protect Israel.
Would it affect foreign policy with Israel? Perhaps. Often evangelicals support Israel for spiritual reasons. You likely find reformed who support Israel for political, economic and social justice reasons.
I once heard a (broadly evangelical) brother say God has preserved the United States to export the gospel and protect Israel.
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Ivan
Pastor
I don't know if Israel would be the only issue for such a President. What would that President attempt to do in regards to our country's finances, culture, military, etc.?
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
I agree with Rae. Our policies reflect a Dispensational understanding of the role of Israel.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
I think it would possibly be worse to have a US President that supported the hardline Palestinians and wanted to get rid of Israel.
Presumably some of you are thinking it would be better to have a President who followed a middle-line between Israel and the Palestinians, presumably leading to a viable Palestinian state at peace with the Jewish state (?)
Would that happen anyway, even if you had such a President/foreign policy?
Presumably some of you are thinking it would be better to have a President who followed a middle-line between Israel and the Palestinians, presumably leading to a viable Palestinian state at peace with the Jewish state (?)
Would that happen anyway, even if you had such a President/foreign policy?
Marrow Man
Drunk with Powder
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
Ivan
Pastor
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
I don't know. He may have believed it when he was President. Not sure he believes it today. What do liberals believe about millennialism?
I'll echo the point that the U.S. government already behaves in a somewhat dispensationalist manner.
That it's ridiculous to believe Jesus will return at all, I imagine.
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
I don't know. He may have believed it when he was President. Not sure he believes it today. What do liberals believe about millennialism?
That it's ridiculous to believe Jesus will return at all, I imagine.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Many Theological Liberals in Scotland would side with the Palestinians and boycott Israeli/West Bank goods.
Many Theological Liberals don't give a ................... about a Millennium or the Second Advent, or the Resurrection of Christ for that matter.
Some liberals/neo-orthodox will believe that there is "religious truth" in the teaching of the Second Coming, rather than true Truth.
When your spiritual vision is myopic, do you look that far ahead? Remember the Sadducess and their denial of the resurrection.
Tony Blair was a Church of England liberal. Now he's a Romanist liberal like his wife, and he's trying to tell the Pope that he should drop out, tune in and turn on, and that Il Papa, himself, should join the hippie free love wave of the post- '60s.
I doubt Blair was motivated by dispensationalism in his support for war in Afghanistan and Iraq. He would be more likely motivated by faith in himself.
Many Theological Liberals don't give a ................... about a Millennium or the Second Advent, or the Resurrection of Christ for that matter.
Some liberals/neo-orthodox will believe that there is "religious truth" in the teaching of the Second Coming, rather than true Truth.
When your spiritual vision is myopic, do you look that far ahead? Remember the Sadducess and their denial of the resurrection.
Tony Blair was a Church of England liberal. Now he's a Romanist liberal like his wife, and he's trying to tell the Pope that he should drop out, tune in and turn on, and that Il Papa, himself, should join the hippie free love wave of the post- '60s.
I doubt Blair was motivated by dispensationalism in his support for war in Afghanistan and Iraq. He would be more likely motivated by faith in himself.
Ivan
Pastor
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
I don't know. He may have believed it when he was President. Not sure he believes it today. What do liberals believe about millennialism?
That it's ridiculous to believe Jesus will return at all, I imagine.[/QUOTE]
With the group his running with now, you never heard them talking about millennialism.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
It appears that the Decalogue is being done away with, and everyone is being told they are under grace............so what would be the change????
Spinningplates2
Puritan Board Freshman
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
I don't know. He may have believed it when he was President. Not sure he believes it today. What do liberals believe about millennialism?
That it's ridiculous to believe Jesus will return at all, I imagine.
With the group his running with now, you never heard them talking about millennialism.[/QUOTE]
You mentioned this earilier and I'm still confused. What Liberals believe in Millennialism? And what difference does it make if a person who does not think the Bible is true "says" they believe in a biblical word?
Ivan
Pastor
Two words: Jimmy Carter
Except that he somehow gets Israel and the Palestinians mixed up.
I don't know. He may have believed it when he was President. Not sure he believes it today. What do liberals believe about millennialism?
That it's ridiculous to believe Jesus will return at all, I imagine.
With the group his running with now, you never heard them talking about millennialism.
You mentioned this earilier and I'm still confused. What Liberals believe in Millennialism? And what difference does it make if a person who does not think the Bible is true "says" they believe in a biblical word?[/QUOTE]
I'm sure he would profess faith in Christ and say he believes Jesus is coming again. I'm just not sure we are talking about the same Jesus anymore.
baron
Puritan Board Graduate
Did not Chuck Colson write along those lines in God and Goverment, about a President that was highly motivated by his dispensational world view. Regarding the chaos that view could hold for the world.
Would not a President that was a strong dispensational think he might hurry Armageddon, bringing about the Second coming of Jesus?
Would not a President that was a strong dispensational think he might hurry Armageddon, bringing about the Second coming of Jesus?
Glenn Ferrell
Puritan Board Junior
Some of Ronald Reagan's statements sounded like they came from a Dispensationalist:
“I read in the old testament that God will gather the Israelis in the land of return. This has finally happened after almost two thousand years and for the first time everything is ready for the final battle and the return of Christ.”
“I read in the old testament that God will gather the Israelis in the land of return. This has finally happened after almost two thousand years and for the first time everything is ready for the final battle and the return of Christ.”
Dear Pastor Ivan,
If I have read the situation correctly, our last president (43rd) was a pre-mil, pre-trib dispensationalist. A so-called "evangelical". I am pretty sure Reagan was the same, although I never saw evidence that either thought long or more than superficially on these issues. Dispenationalism is, In my humble opinion, founded upon a liberal (man centered) hermeneutic - and it has infected all of the mainlines to some degree. Oddly, it is they that embrace the nomer "conservative" so heartily.
So, if you refer to "a President in the United States who firmly believed in dispensationalism" with the emphasis on "firmly", then I guess not much impact if they're not prone to study and be ready to prepare to give reasons for the Hope that is in them.
I'm curious why you think that it would be VERY unlikely - I think it would be VERY likely, and as Rae says, there exists some sort of de facto dispensationalism. The question is more akin to Rae's other thought - what are the chances that "we had a president (or other highly influential official) who was astute enough -- though wrong -- to actually know and believe dispensationalism"?
Reagan was, I think, a Presbyterian. George the 41st, an Episcopalian. Clinton, a Southern Baptist (likewise, Carter). George the 41st was Methodist. All of these mainline denominations have been to some degree influenced by dispensationalism and many communicants think that way without even knowing why.
It should come as no surprise to the Puritans on this forum that not everyone even thinks like we do, if they think at all. So what's a guy to do? Great topic to bring up and discuss, Pastor Ivan.
Jimmy the Greek
Puritan Board Senior
I think Rae is right. We couldn't have been more pro-Israel in the past had we had a dispensational believer in the White house. Obama is the first president since 1948 to show an easing up on the firmness of the U.S. position.
LeeJUk
Puritan Board Junior
I support the Palestinians to be honest. I don't think the biblical position at all allows them to oppress, kill, maim and rob the Palestinian people group even if they are Israel and I think that the almost partisan support that America and Britain give Israel is totally unjustifiable.
Just another small point, how is it the west denounces and threatens Iran the moment it tries to get nuclear power (a weapons program does not exist and has not been found by the international community, simply power has been found and has been declared as the intention of the Iranian government) and yet Israel has nuclear weapons and has actually invaded Lebanon in the past and is an active threat to other nations and no one in the west (especially the media) even bats an eye lid. Total double standards. Just something to chew on.
Just another small point, how is it the west denounces and threatens Iran the moment it tries to get nuclear power (a weapons program does not exist and has not been found by the international community, simply power has been found and has been declared as the intention of the Iranian government) and yet Israel has nuclear weapons and has actually invaded Lebanon in the past and is an active threat to other nations and no one in the west (especially the media) even bats an eye lid. Total double standards. Just something to chew on.
Glenn Ferrell
Puritan Board Junior
The majority of American Evangelicals have been influenced by Dispensationalist teaching regarding Israel, many of them not actually knowing what Dispensationalism is. This explains much of the US support of the modern state of Israel. They believe the current state has some special religious significance as God’s chosen people. It’s a strange collaboration between Evangelicals and often atheistic or non religious American Jews, supporting a socialistic nation state where the gospel may not be freely preached and Christians are often harassed. Dispensationalism leverages Protestant support for Zionist foreign policy.
Yup.
---------- Post added at 03:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------
Looks pretty odd from here, too.
I really don't understand the disdain some here seem to feel toward Jews. No matter what your view of the future of the Jewish people is, it is still God who raises up a government and God who brings it down. God must have returned the Jews to Israel for a reason, whether you can fathom it or not. Whether you believe Israel rightly belongs in the land or not, they are there and have flourished. I don't understand why the support for the Palestinians, they should be treated well, but they hate Christians as much as they hate Jews, they don't support our right to exist as a country. I don't have my eschatology all worked out, but Zechariah 12: 10 says "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves. "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." Since the Jews are the ones who pierced our Lord, it looks to me that one day, a great number in Israel will turn to Christ in repentance. I for one praise our Great and Mighty God, and am amazed that he chose to have mercy on me.
Glenn Ferrell
Puritan Board Junior
Not giving the modern state of Israel a blank check to do what they want or a claim on US military, foreign and political aid is not the same as having something against the Jews. The nation state of Israel is neither equivalent to the Jews as a people, nor do they have a special claim on God’s blessing or the support of other nations. Obviously, as God decrees all that takes place, the establishment of Israel is part of his overall plan in accomplishing his purposes in Jesus Christ and his Church, but no more or less than any other nation.. This does not guarantee the continuing existence of the modern state of Israel, exempt them from God’s moral law, nor their obligation to embrace Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords. They have the same rights to exist and defend themselves as any nation. These rights do not include the oppression of the Palestinian people, nor confiscation of Palestinian land (often land owned by the same families for generations) without due process. If they expect the support of Christian Americans, they should be open to the propagation of the gospel within their borders and not harass Christians among their residents.
Not all Palestinians are Muslim. I don’t know the percentages; but many have been Christians for generations. The rest we should be evangelizing, as we should the Jews.
All God’s blessings for the Jews are through Jesus Christ. This passages and similar ones is speaking of the Jews as a people, not as a non-Christian political entity, which does not acknowledge the Messiah.
Of course we should pray for the conversion of the Jews. The Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God suggested:
“To pray for the propagation of the gospel and kingdom of Christ to all nations; for the conversion of the Jews, the fulness of the Gentiles, the fall of Antichrist, and the hastening of the second coming of our Lord...”
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
15% are orthodox Christians. They're the original Christians. Jews who converted to the true faith and who left the synagogue of Satan, i.e. Judaism. All the latest anthropological evidence points to this.
Dawn, you say
The Chechens have been returned to their original land. They're the worst terrorists around. Arguably even more evil than the Israelis, but that's arguable. Really arguable.
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