Amillenialism: Current state of Satan?

[thistle93]

Hi! Does Amillenialism believe that Satan is currently bound as described in Rev 20:2 or does it believe that it is currently the time that Satan is released from the pit for a short time as described in Rev 20:7, before he is cast into lake of fire? Or are both positions promoted by various theologians? If so, which position is most predominant?

Thank you!

For His Glory-
Matthew Wilson

 

[Andres]

That he is bound. Think of it as a vicious dog on a chain. He still has some influence, but he is severely limited since Christ conquered him on the cross.

 

[TeachingTulip]

Hi! Does Amillenialism believe that Satan is currently bound as described in Rev 20:2

Yes, indeed. According to Hebrews 2:14-15.

or does it believe that it is currently the time that Satan is released from the pit for a short time as described in Rev 20:7, before he is cast into lake of fire?

Amills believe Satan's power has been defeated on the cross, and that Christ will without the devil's hindrance, build His church until all the elect predestined to be saved will be saved. Then Satan will be loosed for a short season to deceive the remainder of all the non-elect in the world. Revelation 20:1-10

In other words,'s, the "thousand years" consist of Christ's rule and gathering of His church, during the time of His first coming and His last return to judge.

"Amillennialism" is a denial of any kind of earthly reign (or literal 1000 years) preceding or following Christ's second coming.

 

[Scott1]

It has become my understanding that amillennialism Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection. He still has some power, is still an enemy, but I'm not sure how best to describe that.

I think it is fair to say, even in amillennialism, to say the Christian has three enemies- the world, the flesh, and the devil.

The "thousand years" is figurative for the time between our Lord's resurrection, and His return to judge all men.

Also, you may already know this, amillennialism understands the "latter days" to have begun when our Lord ascended into heaven.

(These principles, which the church held to, in the main historically, are completely contrary to modern dispensational premillenialism, etc.)

 

[SolaScriptura]

What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"

 

[Peairtach]

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan's binding is progressive from the first century onwards, as the Gospel goes forth.

(a) He laid hold on him

(b) Bound him for 1,000 years.

(c)Cast him into a bottomless pit.

(d)Shut him up

(e)Set a seal on him

This position is more consonant with Optimistic Amillennialism or Postmillennialism, and also ties in with how, although the Millennium was realised in the first century (Amillennialism), there has also been progress since then over the last 2,000 years (Postmillennialism).

 

[Scott1]

What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"

Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection.

In the sense of salvation.

Pretty much, the nations outside of Israel were without the Word of God, and without salvation before our Lord's resurrection.

 

[SolaScriptura]

What does it mean to "deceive the nations?"

Satan is bound in the sense that he can longer deceive the nations (about Christ, the Word), as was generally the case before our Lord's resurrection.

In the sense of salvation.

Pretty much, the nations outside of Israel were without the Word of God, and without salvation before our Lord's resurrection.

And that didn't have anything to do with the fact that God's people, and their witness, was limited geographically and the OT didn't tell them to "go make disciples of the nations?"

Is Satan able to "deceive" at all? If he can deceive a person, can he "deceive" a people group? (Because there certainly are people groups without the Word of God.)

 

[Peairtach]

Whole nations as nations have been deceived and are being deceived.

The elect are not deceived, at least after their conversion.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Satan's binding is progressive from the first century onwards, as the Gospel goes forth.

(a) He laid hold on him

(b) Bound him for 1,000 years.

(c)Cast him into a bottomless pit.

(d)Shut him up

(e)Set a seal on him

This position is more consonant with Optimistic Amillennialism or Postmillennialism, and also ties in with how, although the Millennium was realised in the first century (Amillennialism), there has also been progress since then over the last 2,000 years (Postmillennialism).

 

[SolaScriptura]

Whole nations as nations have been deceived and are being deceived.

The elect are not deceived, at least after their conversion.

Was there ever a time when that happened?

 

[Scott1]

Is Satan able to "deceive" at all?

The right answer, which we know from the standpoint of the sovereignty of God is... only if God allows (ordains) it.

In a sense, God did this in a general way when the light of His special revelation was primarily limited to the covenant community of Israel in the Old Testament.

There were exceptions, of course, but in general, Satan is no longer "free" to deceive the (Jewish and Gentile worlds) from the gospel after our Lord's death, burial and resurrection.

 

[jwithnell]

Satan is defeated now and our orientation should be toward heaven and the new earth. But there is a "not yet" sense to it in that we still live in a sinful world and await the second advent. Just as we are fully justified and sanctified -- but not yet -- because we still struggle with sin in our lives. God, who is outside of time, has condescended to reveal Himself to His creature that is limited in his perspective to the sequential passage of time.

 

[lynnie]

I guess I'll be the odd view here, I am amil but I think we are probably at the very end when satan is unleashed or about to be unleashed. The rise of Islam, the post Christian west, too many nukes in too many itchy hands. I might be wrong but at no time in history (unless before the flood) have there been nuclear weapons accessible to Islam, and that alone is a set up for horror. I might be wrong, but I expect to see the Lord come back in my life or the life of my kids.

 

[torstar]

Is it true that the original language term for the Revelation binding is the same as that of the strong man binding so that his house may be robbed?

Or was that another sermon from my youth that turned out a tad apocryphal?

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

Amills believe Satan's power has been defeated on the cross, and that Christ will without the devil's hindrance, build His church until all the elect predestined to be saved will be saved. Then Satan will be loosed for a short season to deceive the remainder of all the non-elect in the world. Revelation 20:1-10

What further deception do the non-elect need though? I certainly wonder what it means for the nations to be deceived if they are already deceived.
[edit] does is simply mean 'further' deception?

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Matthew,

This is one of the key questions of eschatology today – per your OP – given that the amillennial view is the Biblical one. Thus I am answering according to the OP, and don’t wish to start a debate on this in relation to the other views – another thread can be for that, and I probably won’t participate as I’m busy packing to head back to the U.S., after 9 years away.

Lynnie,

Your view is not odd even though it may stand alone in this thread thus far.

As mentioned above, the nations as nations cannot be deceived by Satan during the 1,000 years (Rev 20:3), though there will be “a little season” where he will be loosed and able to do that, and this brief season will be after the 1,000 years “be fulfilled”, just prior to the Lord’s return.

During the 1,000 years – indicating almost the entirety of the church age – Satan is quite active against individuals but not against nations, as we can see. Spiritually he is under the feet of the elect, seated as they are in Christ in the heavens (Eph 2:6; 1:18-23), though they love not their physical lives even unto the death, bearing witness to Him in the hostile God-hating world.

When Satan is loosed, he is still under the believers’ feet, but he is given power to deceive the leaders and peoples of the whole unbelieving world (Rev 16:13, 14), albeit unwittingly acting out God’s decree to gather them for the final battle as v. 14 says, which battle is also shown in Rev 19:11-21, and, in a cameo, in 20:9.

It does seem that nations – as nations – are being given over to wholesale deception again, denying the Christ of God and persecuting the Christians. Many nations in the third world, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and also Communists (N. Korea, Eritrea, China) increasingly persecute Christians; but now we are seeing the West slowly begin to do so. There is a mighty surge in the U.K. to marginalize, criminalize, and crush the church, and it is being restrained for the moment, but a consensus is slowly building there against the people of God, and the U.K. will eventually fall. Did we think that only our brethren in the non-Western nations would be given to suffer, while the white, wealthy, and wise would be exempt? In Canada parts of the Bible have been deemed “hate speech” in the courts for its declaring non-heterosexual unions and activity sin in God’s eyes, and the pressure there mounts.

Only the stand-up Christians will oppose the cultural tidal-wave of postmodern relativity (don’t impose what’s true for you on others’ truths) regardless of the consequences. The nominal Christians will show their true colors and disavow those who stay true to the Bible and its Lord. The wheat will be separated from the chaff in the wind of intense societal disapproval and sanctions.

Even though pre-2nd W.W. Germany was one of the most culturally advanced nations, it yielded to the Nazi vision and activity. Even so, America will turn brutal – worse than the 3rd world and Communism! (if one can imagine that) – in its hatred of the faithful Christian witness. Like a great undercurrent it is building and will surface eventually. Perhaps some trigger event – some pistol-packin’ Christian? – will shoot someone highly popular, and we’ll all be painted with the same brush: “Get rid of these Christians who hate progress and civil rights! They are enemies of humanity!”

We are seeing nations given over to wholesale hatred of Christ and His people. We seem to be at that cusp of Satan’s being bound and his release, i.e., he’s just been loosed.

The West, especially America, has gotten fat, lazy, godless, and hedonistic, and the church has picked up her ways. For love of His bride the Lord will purify her in the fires of affliction, that she come out of her and cleave to Him.

Satan’s loosing is at the Lord’s command; He controls the opening of the seals and the sounding of the trumpets: it is time for us to practice what we preach. What will the affliction look like? Look at what our sisters and brothers suffer in Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea, Iran etc and double it. It won’t be pretty. Everything sacred to us will be profaned, despoiled.

I agree with Lynnie that it may very well be in our lifetimes (well, I’m old, at almost 69) or our children’s. I know what I’m coming back to returning to America. But it’s my country, and my home church, and I’ll stand with it.

Those who say we’ll be raptured out before any tribulation lull the saints. Those who say, Most of the tribulation happened ages ago, things will get better and better now – these also lull the saints when they need to awaken. But the Lord will see to that. We are not exempt from the suffering, and the loosing of Satan for his little season will make that clear. I don’t hear that preached much. But no matter, the Lord will see to it.

 

[Notthemama1984]

At the risk of hijacking the thread......
back Steve!

 

[Pilgrim Standard]

As mentioned above, the nations as nations cannot be deceived by Satan during the 1,000 years (Rev 20:3),

What of the Nations that are deceived? Must they be Christian Nations first then fall away in order to be considered deceived, or deceivable?
Example North Korea. Would they be considered not deceivable since they are already deceived?
What would be the criteria for a Nation to be deceived?
The England under a Papal king = deceived, deceivable or irrelevant until end of 1000 year?
see what I am getting at?

 

[JM]

[video=youtube;PzxLXxv1rio]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxLXxv1rio[/video]

 

[Peairtach]

Those who say, Most of the tribulation happened ages ago, things will get better and better now – these also lull the saints when they need to awaken.

Welcome back, Steve, and I hope you have a good move to the U.S.

I'm postmil, but I wouldn't say that things are getting better and better in Britain. Tribulation isn't just of the AD 70 variety. Lots of Christians experienced the tribulation of state and ecclesiastical persecution in the twentieth century in various nations and do today. It looks set to increase in the West.

JWithnell

Satan is defeated now and our orientation should be toward heaven and the new earth. But there is a "not yet" sense to it in that we still live in a sinful world and await the second advent. Just as we are fully justified and sanctified -- but not yet -- because we still struggle with sin in our lives. God, who is outside of time, has condescended to reveal Himself to His creature that is limited in his perspective to the sequential passage of time.

Just as with individual eschatology, the individual believer has to grow, strengthen and mature, so it is with the worldwide Church.

 

[Scott1]

When Satan is loosed, he is still under the believers’ feet, but he is given power to deceive the leaders and peoples of the whole unbelieving world (Rev 16:13, 14), albeit unwittingly acting out God’s decree to gather them for the final battle as v. 14 says, which battle is also shown in Rev 19:11-21, and, in a cameo, in 20:9.

It does seem that nations – as nations – are being given over to wholesale deception again, denying the Christ of God and persecuting the Christians.

I'm not trying to advocate a position in this, only to understand.

What you describe here and the tenor of your assessment sounds like what is sometimes called the "pessimistic amillennialism" position. A few questions if you have time:

1) Is that a fair term or is this really classical amillennialism?
2) What Scriptural basis is there, other than Revelation 16:13-14 for this decline, apostasy at the end?
3) Is "optimistic amillenialism" just more even at the end, between good and evil before our Lord's return?

One note in your worldwide assessment, how are you factoring in the real advance of biblical Christianity is some places (not just in spite of decline, but seemingly buoying up whole cultures- e.g. South Korea, some parts of Central American, and a burgeoning house church in Communist China)?

 

[lynnie]

JB Steve...thanks for a thoughtful reply. I talked to somebody today that said I have a somewhat pessimistic view living in America, but tremendous revival is going on in other places, especially parts of Africa. As Scott says "One note in your worldwide assessment, how are you factoring in the real advance of biblical Christianity is some places (not just in spite of decline, but seemingly buoying up whole cultures- e.g. South Korea, some parts of Central American, and a burgeoning house church in Communist China)?" So I don't know, maybe these optimistic amils are right and there is no unloosing yet, just more of what we've been experiencing for 2000 years?

I was paging through parts of Riddlebarger's amil book, and he points out that when Satan is unloosed at the end of the mil, this will correspond with Thess 2 and the coming of the lawless one with all signs and wonders. I think we can agree that whether or not you think that will be one person or an antichrist entity, it isn't operating yet (Benny Hinn to the contrary ). I suspect we will know the unloosing is here when we see this miracle working lawless one deceiving to a massive degree.

We do have 4-5 billion people out of 6-7 billion, TOTALLY dependent on the electric grid. Water, heat, food, cooking, sewage, travel, everything. And you have the potential for enormous disruption to that with some well placed atmospheric EMPs or land bombs, and nations like Pakistan with nukes, and who knows how many smuggled from the USSR through Chechnya. I watch the whole picture and it looks to me like the ingredients for an apocalypse. Has there ever been a time in history when in one hour- only one hour, Babylon, the great world system opposed to God, could be destroyed? I suppose if we think of asteroids and solar flares and so forth yes, God could do it in one hour of course. But I am suspecting nukes, just my opinion. (If indeed the one hour is literal.) They talk about sci fi satellite laser weapons that can be aimed at earth to burn....I wonder what is being worked on in secret and if the day is coming soon when in one hour our whole lifestyle will burn up.

Hey, have a great move back to the USA, and may God bless, and provide.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Thanks, Boliver – and Richard!


Benjamin, I would think that a nation (deceived) need not have been a “Christian” one (that is, having many Christians in it, and showing favor to its churches), but rather not an anti-Christian one, which then turned and enacted policies, either official or tacit, persecuting the faith in some way.

When Satan deceives the nations in Rev 16:13, 14 and 20:8, 9 it is with the purpose of attacking God through attacking His people. The desire to destroy God’s people is the aim of the deception.


Scott, I don’t think of myself or the amil view I hold as pessimistic; were I to consign an amount of gold ore to the crucible for smelting and refining, I look at the pure gold produced, not the removal and destruction of the dross. For 43 years the Lord has loved me by both the discipline of affliction and the prospering of my way. When Paul said,

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter (Ro 8:35, 26)​

he wasn’t being pessimistic, but affirming that we were more than conquerors through the love of our God and Savior, from whom we could not be separated by these things. It’s classic amillennialism.

I’d say another Scriptural basis for the apostasy at the end is found in 2 Thess 2:3. Likely also Matt 24:10 ff., where “offended” is the Greek skandalizo, and here refers to disillusionment with the Way and turning against it. True, this being “offended” has occurred throughout the church age, yet will become massive as fiery trials afflict the saints in the end times.

The “optimistic” view? The tribulation shown in Scripture, such as Rev 20:8, 9,

And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them​

which is illumined by Rev 11:7

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them​

indicating that the church shall be virtually destroyed in the final assault upon it – at least any visible organized church, the surviving saints having gone “underground” – and the Lord will at that point return to destroy the destroyers, this being Armageddon. I have seen Zech 14:1-4 interpreted in this light also: pertaining to the persecution up though the church age, but intensifying at the end. Riddlebarger, Beale, Dennis Johnson, Hendriksen, Azurdia all hold to this basic view of the final persecution, and I wouldn’t call them either pessimistic or optimistic.

The church, even in its vast martyrdom, is glorious, triumphant, scorning death, esteeming the love of the Saviour more than life.

The church will prosper in many areas, spread like wildfire, even if it come to pass in the end as it is written, “For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter” (Ro 8:36).

There may be a great reviving of the church in America when censure and persecution come, alongside a great falling away. Even if only a tenth remain true, or a fiftieth, the glory will rest upon those who love not their lives unto the death.

It simply cannot be that the “white, wealthy, and wise” will be exempted from being conformed to Christ in His suffering and death, while the poor and persecuted under hostile pagan religions and governments are not. We will be given the opportunity to show our mettle.

It is a great mercy that the wildfires of God’s truth and love are racing through China and South Korea and parts of Africa. May He also quicken many in the State of Israel, and Egypt, Iran, and other Muslim strongholds, and elsewhere across the globe. But even as the Saviour shines in hearts worldwide, the purifying fires of persecution follow. Rev 20:9 seems to show that the hordes of Satan covered the breadth of the earth, and compassed the saints and the beloved city, which I take to be the church throughout the world, in a universal attempt to wipe out God’s kingdom on earth, that the devil may establish his – for the saints will always oppose the falsity of any king and kingdom not of God.

There is a glorious church in North Korea, even though there may be some 60,000 saints in prisons and hard labor camps (per the Barnabas Fund). It is a suffering church, true even unto death. We need to give ourselves more to pray for our suffering brothers and sisters, so we’ll know how to pray for ourselves when our time of need comes.

Lynnie, I theorize about similar dynamics of the end in Thoughts on Babylon the Great in Revelation. I also think nuclear events will play a part in the end, particularly with regard to Babylon. When I was in the Marines some 52 years ago I was an ABC Monitor (Atomic, Biological, Chemical), trained to test for the presence of those substances in the field, and I’ve maintained an interest in their military use up through the years.

What exactly is Babylon is a matter I ponder. You are right when you say it is “the great world system opposed to God”. But could it have a headquarters nation as it did in the ancient empires of Chaldean Babylon and Rome? The implications of that are immense.

I’m very excited about the prospect of returning home to my country. I hope the Lord will give me to be able to write about these things, and to earn our living by this. The days we are living in are the days of the Story beneath all stories – the reality beneath all the mirage images of sci fi and fantasy.

And soon, the Everlasting Kingdom, the Saviour walking among us on the new Earth.

[By "white, wealthy, and wise" I do not mean to skip over peoples and churches of color and/or other ethnicities, but rather to typify the privileged who may be at ease in Zion.]

 

[Peairtach]

Apostasies of various kinds associated with various parts of the world have happened in Church history down through the centuries?

Why would the current spiritual malaise in Western Europe and North America be the final release of Satan?

And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Ezekiel 37-39, a passage that is a helpful expansion on Revelation 20, indicates that this apostasy will happen after Israel (i.e. the New Covenant Church) has been securely settled in her Land (i.e. the whole Earth) for a long period of time. This hasn't been the case in Church history so far. See e.g. Patrick Fairbairn's commentary on Ezekiel.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Richard,

Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as a conglomerate have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.

I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age combined. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?

Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.

Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.

America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& upper middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.

We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.

We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!

This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.

Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.

 

[TeachingTulip]

Richard,

Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as a conglomerate have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.

I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age combined. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?

Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.

Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.

America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& upper middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.

We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.

We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!

This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.

Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.

Pastor,

Your words of wisdom and warning are a continuing blessing and encouragement to myself and my husband. Thank you for your posts and your courage to call things as they are.

You will be in our prayers as you travel back to the U.S.

 

[Peairtach]

Richard,

Has not the church been peacefully settled – generally speaking – upon the earth for a long period? Yes, there has been persecution at times, but the nations as a conglomerate have not gone after her. Satan’s power to assemble a Gog and Magog force was taken from him at the inception of the church age / “1,000 years” (cf Rev 20:8; Ezek 38, 39), though that has long been his desire.

I think it is commonly accepted that more Christians have been killed in the 20th and 21st centuries than have been killed in all the prior centuries of the church age combined. Might that not lead one to think something awful is afoot in the crawling shadows of this world?

Persecution of our sisters and brothers continually intensifies around the world, mainly in Islamic and Communist lands, but also in Hindu and Buddhist countries. Those who have their ear to the ground (do you UK folks know that expression?) are aware something is building in the West as well, more than merely “the current spiritual malaise”.

Let me tell you what I think – and I’m focusing on America now – food prices will soar, as will fuel (for heating and transportation), while the value of the dollar will decrease in purchasing power. Yes, the British pound and the Euro have their troubles, but nothing like the dollar with our man in the White House and his runaway printing presses.

America already has vast multitudes without jobs or income save gov’t foodstamps, many middleclass (& upper middleclass!) are virtually homeless, save for their vehicles and / or tents. I won’t even go into the increasing toxicity of the environment and resultant sickness, or the increasing surveillance by and powers of what appears to be almost a police state developing. Now I’m not an anti-government person by any means, and I like the police. But I discern a scrutiny – not benevolent – against the Christians by both government and liberal observers of the culture which bespeaks a growing suspicion of our approach to politics, society, mental health, etc, and there are some among us – I think of the Dominionists and “Theonomists” – which give them warrant to fear us. And then there is our opposition to the immorality of the age, which some call the oppressing of others’ freedoms, whether it be same-sex unions having the status of marriage, or abortion.

We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.

We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!

This is not pessimistic, but having open eyes, while at the same time those elect who cleave to the Lord and His doctrine are determined to make a stand come what may: to be sound in doctrine, and godly in life and character. This is His glorious church, even if its numbers grow smaller. He is not after mere quantity, but quality such as shall enter into His holy and everlasting kingdom.

Is not the shadow of Mordor darkening the whole earth? But the glory of the Lord shines in His true people.

I agree with your assessment that the Church in the West is facing severe ecclesiastical and state persecution as a result of fundamentalist secular humanism and political correctness. But not that it is the end of the World. But I'm postmil rather than amil so that might be expected.

 

[Scott1]

We represent God and His holy law, and we live according to His kingdom governance – in a satanic world, a world become exponentially more wicked and unrestrained since the entrance of sorcery into the collective consciousness, unleashing ideas and psychic / mental / emotional powers while at the same time delegitimizing the Christian ethos in the eyes of many.

We have but to observe the times in connection to the churches to assess if there is a stream of damnable heresies being drunk at by multitudes of professing believers. This love for gospels which are not the Gospel, or another Jesus who is not the true Jesus, or another spirit who is not the Spirit which is of God (2 Cor 11:3, 4) bodes not well for the assemblies of God. It seems to me that the cleaving to the false teachers and their doctrines is in itself a falling away. And this wave of deception is huge!

The only caution in this is that we are not good interpreters of our own times.

We are, quite naturally shaped much by our experiences.

We inherently lack perspective, context and of course, the immutable attributes of our God (infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresence).

Tonight, we read of another time in which Christians were departing from the faith- and when in such close proximity to our Lord's resurrection, and the divine inspiration of apostolic authority even.

Galatians 1

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

And an Apostle who prayed even for deliverance from the evil generation he lived in

4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

And, also, though we cannot know for sure, statistics tell us there are far more Christians (both in number and percentage of people on earth) than there have ever been.

That counts for something, something very big in the Kingdom of God, even if God's plan is to place many of us in positions to suffer.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Ronda, thanks to you and your husband for the encouragement.


Scott, a few remarks on your post:

You are amil, is that correct? Otherwise we would not be on the same page.

I think it is a good “caution” you posit with respect to attempting to discern our own times. Of course we lack the divine “perspective”, but does this mean that we are virtually blind and can see nothing at all?

The example you gave from Galatians 1 where Christians were being lured away by false teaching pertained to a limited region, and not the mass of the church. Nor had the falling away been complete, and so Paul wrote to them to abort the work of the Judaizers.

Regarding the prophetic Scriptures being given us that we may know the times we are in, I’d like to quote something from Stuart Olyott’s great little commentary on Daniel, Dare To Stand Alone. The angel has been telling Daniel the visions of chapter 8:

“ ‘You have heard the truth, Daniel,’ says the angel (26). ‘Now preserve the vision, because the future will need a record of what you have seen.’

“And it did. In those darkest of days, when the people of God were being hounded and killed in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, they needed and they had the comfort of this chapter of Daniel. Throughout that period they were consoled by knowing that this wicked man could not have stepped on to the page of history without divine permission and that everything he did, however awful, was nothing other than what God had predicted centuries earlier. They knew that in God’s time, and in fulfilment of verse 25, he would at last be removed. To know all this was an indescribable comfort to them in horrific times.” (p. 110)​

In like manner we also are given the Scriptures that we may have discernment. Jesus said to the apostles (and also to us), “These things have I spoken unto you, that you should not be offended [the Greek skandalizo again] . . . But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them” (John 16:1, 4).

It is true, that generation upon generation has thought the end times were upon them, but the troubles they knew were just typical of that trouble to seize both the world and the people of God in the final time.

But here we are looking at both the quality and quantity of deception as regards entire nations, and not only entire nations, but the entire world of nations. Yes, when the popes said they were the vicars of Christ ruling the church – and the world! – and were as He Himself, the while hunting and slaughtering the saints, at this time it did indeed seem to be the fulfilling of 2 Thess 2 and the man of sin / lawlessness. But the papal usurpation was only typical of one to come. We don’t see such a figure yet in our day in 2011, if in fact it is to be an individual antichrist (which I do think).

The falling away today is of a different sort. It is affecting the Reformed churches, as well as the rest. Rome is already lost, as is Eastern Orthodoxy (though there surely are some believers in their midst, despite the false doctrines). Now we are seeing the Anglican / Episcopal churches fall, and Baptists, Presbyterians, Reformed, Lutherans, Methodists. And even the conservative P&R churches are being caught in the flood spewing from the mouth of the serpent (Rev 12:15), which the amil commentators say is a flood of false teaching and deception to sweep away the woman / church. It was true in John’s day, and in ours.

Increasingly Roman Catholic / New Spirituality (New Age) teaching is entering PCA (and other) churches in the form of “Contemplative Prayer” and other spiritual aberrations. Then we have the FV and NPP, and also “Theonomy” / Christian Reconstruction. It is a flood! Those who stay true to the Gospel and the Scriptures may grow smaller and smaller in number. Might there be a great revival in the church? Yes. Maybe the specter of multitudes departing will alarm some and they will cry out to God for help.

Then there is the problem of worldliness, self-pleasing, ease and comfort luring even the godly, for the wine of Babylon is sweet to the flesh. Meanwhile, “at ease in Zion”, we are “not grieved for the affliction of Joseph” (Amos 6:1, 6). On these verses J.A. Motyer says,

It was a shrewd thrust for Amos to describe the nation as Joseph—the lad who wailed his heart out in a deep pit while his brothers sat down to eat (Gen. 37:23-25; 42:21). (The Message of Amos; IVP, p. 146).​

Our sisters – mothers, wives, daughters – and brothers are wailing in the jungles of India, the prisons of Iran, the hard labor camps of North Korea, the killing fields of Iraq, and on and on . . . and do we grieve? And in prayer ask our Lord to succor them? It is a good practice to pray so, for we will learn the needs of the suffering church, and when our time of need comes we will already know how to pray.

I would love nothing better, Scott, than for me to be off by 3 or 4 or 7 or 8 decades! Above I’ve referenced a couple of other threads on this general topic, and I haven’t said anything here about the identity of Babylon, and our possible part in that, and perhaps it’s better I don’t broaden the scope of this thread and its inquiry.

“The quality and quantity of deception as regards entire nations”? That’s amenable to empirical assessment. That’s why I don’t think I’m out of order considering the possibility that the loosing of Satan (Rev 20:7, 8ff.) has already happened, even though it may well take time for the nations en mass to be deceived so as to desire the death and destruction of the church of God.

At the very least we should be teaching the people of God how to be serious disciples – given the times – and how to walk close to Him that we may know to avail ourselves of His strength in our weakness. Jeremiah 12:5 gives the thought that if we don’t know how to walk intimately with Him for strength and grace in gentle times, how shall we manage in the turbulent? And so I prepare the people: to know Him, to rejoice and find comfort in Him, our great Shepherd and Friend.