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Acts 2:41-42 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
These "three thousand souls" became part (members, if you will) of the church in Jerusalem. The model was believe and be baptized.
First thing Saul (Paul) did was submit to baptism.
Acts 9:18 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
Believe and be baptized.
Acts 18:8 8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
The Philippian jailer, and his household, believed and were baptized.
Acts 16:33-34 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
All these things happened before their inclusion in a "local" church.
You want more scriptural proof?
even if that pattern isn't codified as a command per se.
I appreciate the comments. There are many directions this thread can go. I'm simply asking for scripture verses that connect baptism with church membership.
First thing Saul (Paul) did was submit to baptism.
Acts 9:18 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
Believe and be baptized.
Acts 18:8 8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
The Philippian jailer, and his household, believed and were baptized.
Acts 16:33-34 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
All these things happened before their inclusion in a "local" church.
You want more scriptural proof?
None of the above verses say anything about joining a church.
I wonder if there are any articles online by those Particular Baptists like Kiffin and Keach who opposed Bunyan's view that differences on baptism . I think Dagg's Manual of Church Order may address this and Dever has written on it as well.
Agreed. And I'm probably the worst offender for hijacking threads and going off on a tangent.
Many are persuaded by the fact that the professing church, whether Catholic or Protestant, paedo or credo has until very recently been practically unanimous that baptism is the prerequisite to church membership and the Lord's Supper. I know that the fact that the majority of professing Christendom has been paedo has been a huge factor in some former Baptists becoming paedo. But we shouldn't make decisions on these issues solely or even primarily on the basis of church history.
First thing Saul (Paul) did was submit to baptism.
Acts 9:18 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
Believe and be baptized.
Acts 18:8 8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
The Philippian jailer, and his household, believed and were baptized.
Acts 16:33-34 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
All these things happened before their inclusion in a "local" church.
You want more scriptural proof?
None of the above verses say anything about joining a church.
Ivan, there aren't any verses that say the word "Trinity" either. The point is that there is an established order in scripture: believe and be baptized. Baptistism is not optional for a believer. It is the first step of obedience to Christ. Scripture does not to say in specific words, "You must be baptized in order to be a member of a local church." The preponderance of scripture on "believe and be baptized" is overwhelming.
In this repect from a paedobaptist position Baptists are necessarily sectarian in not accepting paedo's into Communion.
I do not see a formal church membership expressed in the NewTestament as we practice it today.
Ivan, here's a question for you. Would you allow someone to join your church who has not be baptized? If you answer yes on the basis that you'll teach them the necessity of being baptized, and they refuse, would you initiate church discipline? If you would do that, then why not deal with that in beginning when the apply for membership?
I do not see a formal church membership expressed in the NewTestament as we practice it today.
Ah, well here's the real meat and taters of your OP. It has nothing to do with baptism; it's about formal church membership.
Ivan, here's a question for you. Would you allow someone to join your church who has not be baptized? If you answer yes on the basis that you'll teach them the necessity of being baptized, and they refuse, would you initiate church discipline? If you would do that, then why not deal with that in beginning when the apply for membership?
Not my issue. Formality and sectarianism are my issues. Think Bunyan.
-----Added 12/7/2008 at 08:38:09 EST-----
Ah, well here's the real meat and taters of your OP. It has nothing to do with baptism; it's about formal church membership.I do not see a formal church membership expressed in the NewTestament as we practice it today.
I know, I'm being a pill. Blame it on my illness.
I believed and it took me almost 2 years to join a church afterwards.
I knew it would take a while and so I sought out a minister to baptize me.
Some thought this "irregular" but I wanted to obey what I saw in the NT, that once I believed I needed to be baptized.
Another fellowshipping church tried to require a man get rebaptized because he had previously been baptised by a Pentecostal.
It seems that many baptists forget the universal aspect of the church and think everything starts and stops outside of their local doors.
The incident I had where a church invited me to preach and they decided to pledge missionary support to me but I was not allowed to partake of the Lord's Supper with them might also reflect an overly localized ecclesiology.
Ivan, here's a question for you. Would you allow someone to join your church who has not be baptized? If you answer yes on the basis that you'll teach them the necessity of being baptized, and they refuse, would you initiate church discipline? If you would do that, then why not deal with that in beginning when the apply for membership?
Not my issue. Formality and sectarianism are my issues. Think Bunyan.
-----Added 12/7/2008 at 08:38:09 EST-----
Ah, well here's the real meat and taters of your OP. It has nothing to do with baptism; it's about formal church membership.
I know, I'm being a pill. Blame it on my illness.
But you can't answer the question? How is it formality and sectarian to require believers to obey the Lord? You have me stumped.
Not my issue. Formality and sectarianism are my issues. Think Bunyan.
-----Added 12/7/2008 at 08:38:09 EST-----
I know, I'm being a pill. Blame it on my illness.
But you can't answer the question? How is it formality and sectarian to require believers to obey the Lord? You have me stumped.
But paedo's honestly and in faith believe that they have obeyed the Lord.
But paedo's honestly and in faith believe that they have obeyed the Lord.
But paedo's honestly and in faith believe that they have obeyed the Lord.
I am not comparing JWs and Mormons, etc., to paedos. But the reasoning would be the same. Many honestly and in faith believe things. Many are very sincere. But many are deceived. Sincerity, honesty and faith do not square with orthodoxy. Some things are left to the conscience of the believer (or professor). Some things we differ on but enjoy sweet fellowship. Some things bar membership, but not fellowship. Some things we simply cannot abide. It comes down to where one draws the line.
I am not comparing JWs and Mormons, etc., to paedos. But the reasoning would be the same. Many honestly and in faith believe things. Many are very sincere. But many are deceived. Sincerity, honesty and faith do not square with orthodoxy. Some things are left to the conscience of the believer (or professor). Some things we differ on but enjoy sweet fellowship. Some things bar membership, but not fellowship. Some things we simply cannot abide. It comes down to where one draws the line.
Surely the reasoning is not the same, as JW's and mormons are not Christians and not part of the Church. To deny Paedos fellowship as fellow Church members is akin to Landmarkism.
There are paedo churches who will put members under discipline who refuse to present their children for baptism. So this cuts both ways, at least to some extent.