James White on Reformed Thomism

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I could be way off but you are saying JW misspoke so now we have a crisis in which we have to rediscover or re-usher in the “Great Tradition”?
Not at all.

JW's statements can stand on their own, be explained, changed, whatever. My observation related to how quickly criticism from the perspective of history has triggered something like, "you are a Platonist and therefore you are dangerous!"

It has been no secret that, in the past 20 years, a substantial segment of the "Reformed Baptist" community has taken issue with doctrines of God like aseity. It caused a great deal of strife back in the early 2000s and 2010s. The dynamics of that controversy are still splashing around.

Then throw in the abuses on the Trinity of the past 20 years. That prompted Barrett to write Simply Trinity. Now I see he is being lumped in with the so-called dangerous Thomists and Platonists.

I read Barrett's book and found nothing at all controversial. So I am amazed at how suddenly there is controversy over what has been settled for more than 1500 years.
 
What JW says at 1:20:30+ about the GT….1:30:20+

But he may be referring to oranges rather than apples
 
Not at all.

JW's statements can stand on their own, be explained, changed, whatever. My observation related to how quickly criticism from the perspective of history has triggered something like, "you are a Platonist and therefore you are dangerous!"

It has been no secret that, in the past 20 years, a substantial segment of the "Reformed Baptist" community has taken issue with doctrines of God like aseity. It caused a great deal of strife back in the early 2000s and 2010s. The dynamics of that controversy are still splashing around.

Then throw in the abuses on the Trinity of the past 20 years. That prompted Barrett to write Simply Trinity. Now I see he is being lumped in with the so-called dangerous Thomists and Platonists.

I read Barrett's book and found nothing at all controversial. So I am amazed at how suddenly there is controversy over what has been settled for more than 1500 years.
Ok, thank you for correcting me on that. I understand the concern there.
 
What JW says at 1:20:30 + about the GT….
I don't follow the point. I'm on board with what White said there: Scripture demonstrates a truth, that is where Nicea gets it. He even goes so far as to allow that we can call it a "tradition."

He didn't mention the "Great Tradition" in that segment.

Look, I really do not like the term "Great Tradition." It grates on my sensibilities. I don't really have a grasp on what it means to different factions.

But in what I have seen from the people White points to, it does not mean "whatever we contemplatively can come up with using natural revelation and means." It seems to be used more along the lines of, "we've hashed this out long ago so we should pay attention to it."

I could be wrong. Right now I'm seeing defensiveness where it isn't needed.
 
Dr. White discussed this thread on his show from four hours ago. Hello Dr. White!


(The PB discussion starts at 40 mins)
 
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Dr. White discussed this thread on his show from four hours ago. Hello Dr. White!


(The PB discussion starts at 40 mins)

Jacob clarified what he meant by Socianianism in a subsequent comment. Dr White did not address that point adequately in his response. Yes, it is true that Socianianism involved denying many doctrines that Dr White affirms. That point still does not address the concern being raised that the denial of a "Thomist" understanding of divine simplicity was another fundamental error of the Socinians that the Reformed orthodox stood against.

To be fair, however, I am not joining in a pile-on of Dr White. One problem with many Reformed Thomists is that while they accurately discern Reformed orthodoxy's reliance on Thomism and scholasticism, they tend to ignore or downplay the pointed criticisms the Reformed orthodox sometimes directed towards both Thomas in particular and the Schoolmen more generally. Moreover, I am also not entirely convinced by the whole Christian Platonism argument.
 
Jacob clarified what he meant by Socianianism in a subsequent comment.
Regardless, to call a brother in Christ a Socianian (and by extension a damned heretic) is not appropriate. If you want to criticize and point out errors than do so, but do it without breaking the 9th commandment.
 
I think, once again, Dr. White was very reasonable with his analysis following his expressed hurt in response to Jacob.
 
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Regardless, to call a brother in Christ a Socianian (and by extension a damned heretic) is not appropriate. If you want to criticize and point out errors than do so, but do it without breaking the 9th commandment.

Jacob said that he feared Dr White was becoming a Socinian, not that he was a Socinian. I think that Jacob's point is that those who tinker with the confessional doctrine of simplicity are becoming Socinian on this specific point, which error he regards as very dangerous (and for good reason).
 
Jacob said that he feared Dr White was becoming a Socinian, not that he was a Socinian. I think that Jacob's point is that those who tinker with the confessional doctrine of simplicity are becoming Socinian on this specific point, which error he regards as very dangerous (and for good reason).
And if I hear Dr. White's message correctly, there is also a danger of going too far the into "tradition" and eventually denying Sola Scriptura. Both are dangerous. At this point though, I think we need to be charitable to each other. As far as I can tell, no one has become a papist/eastern "orthodox" (or one of the other false forms of Christianity that upholds tradition as ultimate) and no one has become a Socinian.
 
Regardless, to call a brother in Christ a Socianian (and by extension a damned heretic) is not appropriate. If you want to criticize and point out errors than do so, but do it without breaking the 9th commandment.

I might not have been as clear as I should have. His method is Socinian. He himself isn't.
 
Dr. White discussed this thread on his show from four hours ago. Hello Dr. White!


(The PB discussion starts at 40 mins)
Wonders Dr. White, How does anyone keep up with all that stuff [on the Puritan Board]?

Well, you don’t have to keep up with all of it. Most of us are just here for @jw’s recipes.
 
Maybe, but our mindset is already Nicene and we can't pretend otherwise when we go to Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Now it is me who can say I never meant we should pretend otherwise. Only that the foundations of mindsets are irrelevant to the point that if an apocalyptic device goes off and erases all creeds, commentaries, historio-theological texts, even the confessions themselves etc and leaves us only the Scriptures, we will in fact re-create - as a species - the interpretations and tools of exegesis because it is Scripture alone that is preserved by God and the illumination of the Spirit alone that reveals its meaning to those who remain faithful in their devotions and commitment to high view of Scripture.

Even that heresy that I mentioned: "Jesus was the first Christian" while it can be accidentally read by a superficial reading of the Greek - yet it cannot be consistently held throughout the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation and that can be known by Scripture alone without any awareness of the history and tradition of the Nicene Council.

Many doctrines would probably take us yet again many decades and centuries to re-refine (new word) but God is faithful.

Please note: I am not denigrating your well-read credentials into philosophy, theology and history. Not in the least. God forbid. Rather, pointing out the potential danger of overestimating the power of these endeavors.

If Bill Johnson in Bethel commits the error of a low view of Christ as the first Christian, I need not dust off my Church History textbook and delve into the primary sources from the Council of Nicene. That is how powerful the Scripture is in and of itself.
 
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3) Platonism is pronounced "play-tuh-nism," not "platt-tuh-nism."
I have to quibble with this prescription, since 1. his name is Greek and in Greek the "a" is closer to the sound of "a cow" than "day"and 2. English is a transoceanic language with more variations than any other language. (Even though I do pronounce it Playto like Play-dough)

<chuckles> I wish I had something more meaningful to add to this thought provoking discussion.
 
I have to quibble with this prescription, since 1. his name is Greek and in Greek the "a" is closer to the sound of "a cow" than "day"and 2. English is a transoceanic language with more variations than any other language. (Even though I do pronounce it Playto like Play-dough)

<chuckles> I wish I had something more meaningful to add to this thought provoking discussion.
Be careful there, Jacob is a high-school English teacher :D.
 
I have to quibble with this prescription, since 1. his name is Greek and in Greek the "a" is closer to the sound of "a cow" than "day"and 2. English is a transoceanic language with more variations than any other language. (Even though I do pronounce it Playto like Play-dough)

<chuckles> I wish I had something more meaningful to add to this thought provoking discussion.

I grant there is some fluidity in the a-sound. Yet, there is not a single living scholar or reader of Plato who pronounces it that way in lectures.
 
Now it is me who can say I never meant we should pretend otherwise. Only that the foundations of mindsets are irrelevant to the point that if an apocalyptic device goes off and erases all creeds, commentaries, historio-theological texts, even the confessions themselves etc and leaves us only the Scriptures, we will in fact re-create - as a species - the interpretations and tools of exegesis because it is Scripture alone that is preserved by God and the illumination of the Spirit alone that reveals its meaning to those who remain faithful in their devotions and commitment to high view of Scripture.

I'm sure we could re-create the Nicene Creed if an EMP goes off. On the other hand, it's like looking at a finished puzzle and then reassembling it. Your mind already knows the interconnections and final product, so it isn't starting from scratch. Nicene Christology is inevitable.
 
I've been extremely busy of late with work travelling to/from HI or Tampa, FL for a month and a half. I wondered if this would come up on the Puritan Board and then heard James talking about it.

As an admission, I've listened to James White for about 16 years. I think I've listened to very podcast as it's in my workout list. I obviously disagree with him on a lot of things (I'm no antipaedobaptist and think he's a little too focused on some things) but I also have the benefit of hearing a body of work and the assets and liabilities of a man's work.

It's for that reason that I agree with James White but don't agree with some of the ways he critiques the issue.

On the positive side of a "Christian tradition" I think the 20th Century especially saw a lot of departure from well-work Doctrines of God that defined the basic "catholic faith". Those departures include some Reformed Systematic Theologians.

When the Eternal Functional Subordination controversy reared its head I was on the side of the theology and metaphysics of the catholic faith.

That said, I wasn't on its side simply because it is the "tradition". Vic pointed out that the LBCF decided to edit out the notion of GNC. In one sense, the Baptist tradition has less of a term to stand on confessionally than the Reformed notion of GNC.

I do think that the problem that White is poor identifying is that men are essentially saying: "You need to either agree with Thomism or you are departing fro the catholic tradition." There may be some truth to that but that is a very poor way to preserve the catholic tradition.

Men have (and continue to) demonstrate both an exegetical AND a GNC derivation of these essential catholic truths. There is a lot of sloppiness and laziness of men enamored with Thomistic ideas who aren't willing to connect those ideas to the GNC logic of it all. It's just a lazy accusation that the men who wrote the LBCF adopted these categories and, if White doesn't adopt them, then he's departing from his Confession.

Now, White could maybe demand something more but he's also got men who have otherwise been his allies for many years suddenly mocking his call for Sola Scriptura.

White has even said: "Hey, I can get along with people who are saying let's be careful about what we say regarding ad intra versus ad extra ideas." Thus, he's willing to live with those who might see that certain things are more dangerous than others.

But the reality is that nobody is cutting either any slack on this. Either one accepts Thomism or you're just a yokel and White is asking men to put up some exegesis (and I imagine he might be willing to hear some GNC) but all he gets sort of an idea that you have to do hermeneutics according to the great tradition and that it demands Christian Platonism.

In one sense, one could argue that, until every critic of James White listens to everything he has ever said or written on theological matters then they have no business in criticizing him about what he says or refuses to say because, in the balance, he is not trying to put forward a systematic or dogmatic theology that denies essential Christian categories. He might be more sloppy than some prefer for a popularizer and Apologist but, in the main, he's trying to get men to agree with their own Confession that every doctrine needs to either be expressly or neceessarily derived from Scripture. That's not an unreasonable requirement.

Why do I say that a criticizer has to read everything James writes? Because getting your arms around the Christian tradition on these difficult metaphysical things is not any easier. Most of us operate with enough knowledge of theology and history to trust the fences as we see the consequences of those who have historically colored outside the lines. Few of us have studied Church history and how they derived principles from Scripture and used metaphysical language to preserve those ideas to box out those who denied the full divinity of the Son and the Spirit. It's "easy" to just quote something from Aquinas about God's attributes having no distinction ad intra but that ought to be a matter of sublime reflection rather than some sort of prideful bludgeon that we think we can use as if we understand it given our creaturely capacity.

And, for all his faults, White has great assets and he is correct in warning people not to become too enamored with someone and do the work of demonstrating that the "catholic tradition" they are extolling can be properly teased out so as not to embrace all the things that Thomas otherwise "proved" that we might rightly reject. That requires hard work and not Twitter threads from men too young and too inexperienced to have done all the hard work necessary. If they had then they'd be taking the time to explain how these ideas are GNC deductions rather than just mocking a man who has labored long without compromise.

White, as we all do, has feet of clay. He's confident in things he sometimes should not be but so are many of us with strong convictions. He's just not willing to become a Thomist fan boy because it's the "obvious" catholic hermeneutic. If White were a systematic theologian writing books that systematized and memorailized a clear departure then I could understand a scholarly critique. But he is not. He is an apologist and is willing to affirm what his Confession states and is even willing to grant to others the idea that they think we need to include all the necessary cautions about what divine simplicity necessarily implies. So, to those who think they have it figured out, do the GNC work if you think he's missing something and show the necessary connections. If it requires that all of Thomas be read and sorted through then that's not much of a solution.

Sorry about any typos due to my vision.
 
Either one accepts Thomism or you're just a yokel and White is asking men to put up some exegesis (and I imagine he might be willing to hear some GNC) but all he gets sort of an idea that you have to do hermeneutics according to the great tradition and that it demands Christian Platonism.

I would place this in the realm of prolegomena, which is usually prior to exegesis. For example, I'm not sure I could give a persuasive exegesis that universals exist ante rem, but I believe it quite strongly.

On a similar point, the Bible says the soul exists. We all agree. Does exegesis say that the soul exist as a substance in the body or does it exist as the form of the body? Exegesis really can't answer that.
And, for all his faults, White has great assets and he is correct in warning people not to become too enamored with someone and do the work of demonstrating that the "catholic tradition" they are extolling can be properly teased out so as not to embrace all the things that Thomas otherwise "proved" that we might rightly reject. That requires hard work and not Twitter threads from men too young and too inexperienced to have done all the hard work necessary.

He would have stronger ground if some of his friends weren't flirting with heresy. In fact, some of his statements have been troubling as well. As to Twitter, White is far, far, far more active on Twitter than Barrett and Carter. In fact, he retweets them far more than they ever deal with him.
 
I've been extremely busy of late with work travelling to/from HI or Tampa, FL for a month and a half. I wondered if this would come up on the Puritan Board and then heard James talking about it.

As an admission, I've listened to James White for about 16 years. I think I've listened to very podcast as it's in my workout list. I obviously disagree with him on a lot of things (I'm no antipaedobaptist and think he's a little too focused on some things) but I also have the benefit of hearing a body of work and the assets and liabilities of a man's work.

It's for that reason that I agree with James White but don't agree with some of the ways he critiques the issue.

On the positive side of a "Christian tradition" I think the 20th Century especially saw a lot of departure from well-work Doctrines of God that defined the basic "catholic faith". Those departures include some Reformed Systematic Theologians.

When the Eternal Functional Subordination controversy reared its head I was on the side of the theology and metaphysics of the catholic faith.

That said, I wasn't on its side simply because it is the "tradition". Vic pointed out that the LBCF decided to edit out the notion of GNC. In one sense, the Baptist tradition has less of a term to stand on confessionally than the Reformed notion of GNC.

I do think that the problem that White is poor identifying is that men are essentially saying: "You need to either agree with Thomism or you are departing fro the catholic tradition." There may be some truth to that but that is a very poor way to preserve the catholic tradition.

Men have (and continue to) demonstrate both an exegetical AND a GNC derivation of these essential catholic truths. There is a lot of sloppiness and laziness of men enamored with Thomistic ideas who aren't willing to connect those ideas to the GNC logic of it all. It's just a lazy accusation that the men who wrote the LBCF adopted these categories and, if White doesn't adopt them, then he's departing from his Confession.

Now, White could maybe demand something more but he's also got men who have otherwise been his allies for many years suddenly mocking his call for Sola Scriptura.

White has even said: "Hey, I can get along with people who are saying let's be careful about what we say regarding ad intra versus ad extra ideas." Thus, he's willing to live with those who might see that certain things are more dangerous than others.

But the reality is that nobody is cutting either any slack on this. Either one accepts Thomism or you're just a yokel and White is asking men to put up some exegesis (and I imagine he might be willing to hear some GNC) but all he gets sort of an idea that you have to do hermeneutics according to the great tradition and that it demands Christian Platonism.

In one sense, one could argue that, until every critic of James White listens to everything he has ever said or written on theological matters then they have no business in criticizing him about what he says or refuses to say because, in the balance, he is not trying to put forward a systematic or dogmatic theology that denies essential Christian categories. He might be more sloppy than some prefer for a popularizer and Apologist but, in the main, he's trying to get men to agree with their own Confession that every doctrine needs to either be expressly or neceessarily derived from Scripture. That's not an unreasonable requirement.

Why do I say that a criticizer has to read everything James writes? Because getting your arms around the Christian tradition on these difficult metaphysical things is not any easier. Most of us operate with enough knowledge of theology and history to trust the fences as we see the consequences of those who have historically colored outside the lines. Few of us have studied Church history and how they derived principles from Scripture and used metaphysical language to preserve those ideas to box out those who denied the full divinity of the Son and the Spirit. It's "easy" to just quote something from Aquinas about God's attributes having no distinction ad intra but that ought to be a matter of sublime reflection rather than some sort of prideful bludgeon that we think we can use as if we understand it given our creaturely capacity.

And, for all his faults, White has great assets and he is correct in warning people not to become too enamored with someone and do the work of demonstrating that the "catholic tradition" they are extolling can be properly teased out so as not to embrace all the things that Thomas otherwise "proved" that we might rightly reject. That requires hard work and not Twitter threads from men too young and too inexperienced to have done all the hard work necessary. If they had then they'd be taking the time to explain how these ideas are GNC deductions rather than just mocking a man who has labored long without compromise.

White, as we all do, has feet of clay. He's confident in things he sometimes should not be but so are many of us with strong convictions. He's just not willing to become a Thomist fan boy because it's the "obvious" catholic hermeneutic. If White were a systematic theologian writing books that systematized and memorailized a clear departure then I could understand a scholarly critique. But he is not. He is an apologist and is willing to affirm what his Confession states and is even willing to grant to others the idea that they think we need to include all the necessary cautions about what divine simplicity necessarily implies. So, to those who think they have it figured out, do the GNC work if you think he's missing something and show the necessary connections. If it requires that all of Thomas be read and sorted through then that's not much of a solution.

Sorry about any typos due to my vision.
:applause:
 
I'll say some nice things about White, so it doesn't seem like I am a "young Turk" who is attacking his godly elders.

1) I've read his book on KJVonly and listened to most of his talks on it. Very good.
2) His stuff on Mormonism is good.

I just think he is understudied in other issues.
 
I'll say some nice things about White, so it doesn't seem like I am a "young Turk" who is attacking his godly elders.

1) I've read his book on KJVonly and listened to most of his talks on it. Very good.
2) His stuff on Mormonism is good.

I just think he is understudied in other issues.
That is a fair assessment. I think we all have our specialties and areas of focus. White is primarily an apologist speaking to members of false religions or no religions, so it would make sense that his main body of knowledge would be there. I recently just finished the King James Only controversy in preparation for my attending of the "Kept Pure in All Ages" conference this summer. I do not think the presenters will be able to overcome the case presented in that book, but at the same time, the conference is for TR people and not necessarily KJV onlyists. We shall see.
 
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