Para Church Ministries?

[Edward]

Ratio Christi

I just googled it and saw that it was less than 10 years old, which might explain my ignorance; but I see that they have one at SMU, and while it isn't in my circle, I do overlap with folks that do have it within their circle.

 

[earl40]

I see what you are saying, but you can't deny that people are regenerated apart from hearing an ordained teaching elder preach. I would say that most of us are. How would a non-believer unwittingly find himself in a church pew on a Sunday morning to have saving grace dispensed to him? I thought we would say that he is dead in his sin and wouldn't willingly seek out a sermon. Where am I wrong on this?

What I have found interesting is that most of the believers I know, if not all of them, were and are being saved by ordained TE's. I understand many adult converts think they were justified by a conversation with a person who is not ordained, but the fact of the matter is that scripture teaches that the means of salvation is for those who are sent, and it was not you or I who have those beautiful feet. I understand this is a touchy area and has massive ramifications on ones view of para-"church" and if one ought to be a part of such.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

What I have found interesting is that most of the believers I know, if not all of them, were and are being saved by ordained TE's. I understand many adult converts think they were justified by a conversation with a person who is not ordained, but the fact of the matter is that scripture teaches that the means of salvation is for those who are sent, and it was not you or I who have those beautiful feet. I understand this is a touchy area and has massive ramifications on ones view of para-"church" and if one ought to be a part of such.

What I have found interesting is that most of the believers I know, if not all of them, were and are being saved by ordained TE's. I understand many adult converts think they were justified by a conversation with a person who is not ordained, but the fact of the matter is that scripture teaches that the means of salvation is for those who are sent, and it was not you or I who have those beautiful feet. I understand this is a touchy area and has massive ramifications on ones view of para-"church" and if one ought to be a part of such.

I can't say that I agree with you on that belief. I wonder how many even on the PB would agree that ordained teaching elders alone can "confer saving grace"---I wouldn't say any person other than God "confers" saving grace.

Are you basing your belief on Rom. 10 and the fact that the New Testament records mainly the activity of the apostles who would be considered ordained teaching elders?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Jesse,
I agree w/ earl here. Most on PB would as well. The biblical means would be that the elders are appointed to confer the means of grace. Whenever we see the word 'preach' in scripture, it is used in relation to the office and the characteristics that accompany such an office.

 

[earl40]

I can't say that I agree with you on that belief. I wonder how many even on the PB would agree that ordained teaching elders alone can "confer saving grace"---I wouldn't say any person other than God "confers" saving grace.

Are you basing your belief on Rom. 10 and the fact that the New Testament records mainly the activity of the apostles who would be considered ordained teaching elders?

Yes I am basing my assumptions on Romans 10. Is there any other scriptural basis to assume the contrary?

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you guys saying that when a middle-school student comes to Christ at a school bible study or camp, all of those regenerations are null until he hears the gospel from an ordained TE? Wouldn't the authority of scripture alone be sufficient to save or does the Holy Spirit need a TE?

 

[Gforce9]

I will go on record and say I believe the minister is God's ordained mouthpiece for the gospel. Each and every Lord's Day he teaches and preaches the counsel of God, which has contained in it, God's holy requirement and His gracious posture toward sinners in the gospel. God has appointed the church government for a good reason and it, like any of His institutions, should be heeded by all. The Confession informs us that God may work above and beyond means as pleases Him, but that He primarily works through the means of grace, through His appointed ministers of grace........

 

[Scott Bushey]

Jesse,
Most times, these people that u describe have been in a church where the gospel has been presented; in the back of their minds are these truths that have been faithfully proclaimed. In real time, when a person gives witness to these facts at an arbitrary time are just refreshing what the person already has onboard, or reiterating what the person already knows. People cannot be saved outside of the official means of grace.

 

[Joshua]

I am saying that duty is ours; God's secret workings are His (Deut. 29.29).

The Lord -in the execution of His providence- may (and has) work above, against, below, apart, atop, without, beneath, under, within, beyond, or through His means which He has appointed for us to use. No one can rightly say to Him, "What doest Thou?" But that is neither here nor there as to what my duty is. My duty is what God has prescribed for man in Scripture, and none else. Has the Lord converted people apart from the preaching of a man commissioned, vetted, and examined by a presbytery? Sure. Does that, then, give me leave -because God has worked in His own way- to take up the place of God and ignore what His commands are for me? May it never be.

The Lord rebukes from the mouth of an ass. Does that mean I go looking for talking asses? No. He may send men "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie," (2 Thess. 2.11). Are we free to do that? Of course not. We have the Lord's prescribed means, let us busy ourselves with those. He has not revealed to us His secret workings of providence. We'll watch them unfold as they do. Let us consider how God -in His secret providence- raised up enemies to defeat and humble Israel, but then later, punished and destroyed those very enemies He himself stirred up! The Lord has His ways, and He is perfectly justified in whatsoever He does, and howsoever He does it. We, on the other hand, are beholden to His commandments and prescriptions.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I appreciate your answers. To understand both sides of this--would one side say that the message of the Gospel is the means of salvation and the Reformed side would say that the pastor is the ordained means of grace?

 

[Gforce9]

No. The means are the word read and preached and the sacraments administers rightly. The minister is the appointed man to discharge those duties.....
One "side" says we submit ourselves to this. The other "side" says with Frank Sinatra "I did it my way".....

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Have any of you read the R Fowler White article on the Opc website? He gives biblical grounds for his position.

By the way, whatever position is true is what I'm interested in. If you guys are right I want to agree with you. Thanks for helping me think through this.

 

[Gforce9]

I think that was Frank Sinatra.

Have any of you read the R Fowler White article on the Opc website? He gives biblical grounds for his position.

By the way, whatever position is true is what I'm interested in. If you guys are right I want to agree with you. Thanks for helping me think through this.

I stand corrected...I knew it was on of those old guys! I have not read the article. Something that helped me come to the position I hold is this: if the playing field is level (ie. everyone is a minister), then the office distinctions are irrelevant. Whether the Rev. Robert Tarullo, for example, is preaching the word and administering the sacraments or Greg Seul is, it is mostly irrelevant. The only "benefit" from the ordained minister is that he knows a little more than I do......

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I see your point. I think in a lot of people's minds, including mine, the minister is the man ordained to build up the body of Christ as they preach and administer the means of grace. We benefit greatly from their work, as believers. As non-ordained believers, we live our lives before the world and tell everyone we can about Christ and his word. The conversion is left to God alone.

 

[Joshua]

Have any of you read the R Fowler White article on the Opc website? He gives biblical grounds for his position.

I haven't seen a link to it.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I don't think we would say "I know what the Bible teaches, but I'm doing this my way"

I think we are trying to live our lives in the service of Christ and it's hard not to tell the lost about him. I think it's against our nature to keep it to ourselves.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=193

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Here's the original T David Gordon article if interested

https://opc.org/os.html?article_id=155

 

[Joshua]

I don't think we would say "I know what the Bible teaches, but I'm doing this my way"

I think we are trying to live our lives in the service of Christ and it's hard not to tell the lost about him. I think it's against our nature to keep it to ourselves.

Not only should it prove difficult "not to tell the lost about" Christ, but it is every Christian's duty according to place, station, and ability. The problem is in the equating "telling the lost about [Christ]" with Evangelism, ministry, preaching, etc. The two are not the same. By all lawful means, we should give a word in season, tell others the great things Christ has done for us, be ready to give an answer for the hope we have within us, be excellent in our callings as an adornment to our profession, etc.; yet, these things are not "the ministry of reconciliation," or qualifying us as those official "ambassadors of Christ," or the preaching of the Word. Egalitarianism and "threshold Christianity" decisionalism are great contributing factors to this confusion.

 

[BGF]

This article about the difference between ministers and laymen covers much of the arguments here.

Daniel Featley was answering the anabaptists who argued in favor of what we now call "every member ministry".

https://purelypresbyterian.com/2017/08/25/difference-between-ministers-and-laymen/

 

[Joshua]

This article about the difference between ministers and laymen covers much of the arguments here.

Daniel Featley was answering the anabaptists who argued in favor of what we now call "every member ministry".

https://purelypresbyterian.com/2017/08/25/difference-between-ministers-and-laymen/

Much related, in Volume 2 of R.L. Dabney's Discussions (pp. 76-95), are some outstanding thoughts on "Lay" Ministry.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Okay, I still am not sure what activities by laypeople you guys would consider good or bad.

Good: to tell people about Christ
Bad: To call it evangelism?

I don't think anyone is advocating for laypeople baptizing or preaching in public worship, but we are saying that all believers should bear witness to Christ and the Gospel. But not in a way that competes with the visible church. People are saved by hearing the word of Christ and that can come from simply reading a Bible or hearing it from a Christian. True regeneration will lead them to the visible church. Christians are an extension of the preaching ministry they sit under.

 

[Joshua]

I don't think anyone is advocating for laypeople baptizing or preaching in public worship, but we are saying that all believers should bear witness to Christ and the Gospel. Just not to do this in a way that competes with the visible church. People are saved by hearing the word of Christ and that can come from simply reading a Bible or hearing it from a Christian. True regeneration will lead them to the visible church.

You paraphrase Romans 10 when you say "by hearing the word of Christ," and -yet- if you look in the context of that passage, it is bound up in preaching, by preachers, who are sent. Also, we must weary of this concept of "saved" which puts it as a matter that we each are able definitively to discern a decisive point of regeneration, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. It may not be self-evident for some time. The hearing, believing, being baptized, and the communion of saints are all bound up in the same area. And the prescription for these things, ordinarily, is within the ministry of the Church.

Has the Lord been pleased to regenerate a man at times by them merely reading Scripture, with the Spirit working on, in, and through his heart? Sure. Yet, again, God's secret workings in His providence outside of the prescribe means is no standard, rule, or command for what we ought to do. We do not take upon ourselves to see the secret providence of God work itself out and, therefrom, make it our own practice. Instead, we rejoice that the Lord has apparently brought someone from death into life in that way, helping whomever it is rightly to come under authority and leadership, and continue to execute "the ministry" by God's means prescribed to us.

If we would begin to move away from the modern concept of decisionalism and "threshold" Christianity and -instead- understand the larger picture of what it means to be a part of the Visible Church, in all its ordinances, accountability, service, etc. and that men -through regular and repeated exposure to the Gospel- understand their need of Christ today, now, and forever, perhaps much of this kind of each one reach one mentality would become irrelevant, not putting pressure on those who have no such gifts or calling to "go out of their comfort zone" attempting to take up responsibilities that -not only are not theirs- but belong to those who have been gifted with, examined for, called, and commissioned thereunto. (How's that for a run on sentence?)

 

[BGF]

Joshua, I gotta say, I think you nailed that one. I was in the process of typing similar thoughts on the modern emphasis on "decisions" when, by accident, I refreshed and saw your post. It was better than mine so I deleted.

 

[Joshua]

Joshua, I gotta say, I think you nailed that one. I was in the process of typing similar thoughts on the modern emphasis on "decisions" when, by accident, I refreshed and saw your post. It was better than mine so I deleted.

Brother, my thinking was so long a product of this idea (decisionalism) that there is no telling how much a detriment it was to my endeavors toward holiness for many years of my professing Christian life. In fact, the remnants of it still haunt me to this day as I consider the residue of corruption that I still battle in my heart. As bad as I perceive things to be with myself to this day, I shudder to think of how it would be if, around 9 years ago, I had not come under a more regular and sound exposure to the biblical understanding of endurance and being kept by Christ's intercession on that bedrock of His justification until the final day. So much presumption is bound up in decisionalism and the grave detriment it has been to the large-scale understanding of Christianity in our day is lamentable. That is an easy target, but self-examination is more painful and so -while I can harp on this particular issue with ease- the real challenge is for me to make application in my own life.

 

[BGF]

Brother, my thinking was so long a product of this idea (decisionalism) that there is no telling how much a detriment it was to my endeavors toward holiness for many years of my professing Christian life. In fact, the remnants of it still haunt me to this day as I consider the residue of corruption that I still battle in my heart. As bad as I perceive things to be with myself to this day, I shudder to think of how it would be if, around 9 years ago, I had not come under a more regular and sound exposure to the biblical understanding of endurance and being kept by Christ's intercession on that bedrock of His justification until the final day. So much presumption is bound up in decisionalism and the grave detriment it has been to the large-scale understanding of Christianity in our day is lamentable. That is an easy target, but self-examination is more painful and so -while I can harp on this particular issue with ease- the real challenge is for me to make application in my own life.

Yes, and yes. As it relates to the OP, I am much relieved that I don't have the burden to do that which I am not called to do, and much chastened when I arrogantly presume to do the same.

 

[Deleted member 7239]

I understand your viewpoints, but I do think we shouldn't over-correct the problem of decisional Christianity. We should focus on our duty to share Christ with all that we can.

So I am not going to wait for my pastor to talk to my neighbor about Christ. I don't think that is arrogant-- I think its impossible to avoid if Christ is our life.

 

[Gforce9]

I understand your viewpoints, but I do think we shouldn't over-correct the problem of decisional Christianity. We should focus on our duty to share Christ with all that we can.

So I am not going to wait for my pastor to talk to my neighbor about Christ. I don't think that is arrogant-- I think its impossible to avoid if Christ is our life.

Jesse,
The question, though, is who's duty? What duty do I have as a layman? What duty does the minister have.....from Scripture? Your post inferes we all have the ministry of the word. I don't believe we do.... I in no way wish to be combative, but that issue is front and center......

 

[Deleted member 7239]

Joshua said in a previous post, "Not only should it prove difficult "not to tell the lost about" Christ, but it is every Christian's duty according to place, station, and ability."

 

[BGF]

Jesse, by all means talk to your neighbor about Christ. Just take heed to understand your call and gifting. Much harm can be done by well-intentioned lay "evangelists". I shudder at the some of the false things I've ignorantly said of Christ when sharing the gospel.

Since you feel so strongly about this, have you considered talking to your elders about call discernment? Perhaps you are called to preach and teach. They would be able to help you figure out if that is the case.