Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
I think the OPC a PCA are quiet similar and when they are unite the new denomination would collect the conservative Presbyterians. The Reformed family would not be so fragmented. What do you think?
Chance of OPC and PCA union
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It came close several years go but the OPC and PCA have distinct cultures. I think the chances of it happening now are much more remote than they were back in the 80's when this was a serious consideration. There is a pretty significant progressive movement in the PCA these days.
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
What do you mean about "significant progressive movement in the PCA these days"
Check out the Intown PCA thread on what some think it is to be "missional" these days.
We recently had an Overture (defeated thankfully) arguing that we need to strike the language of "recreation" from the Confessional language on the 4th Commandment. Arguments on Overtures committee amounted to the idea that the exception was pretty much perfunctory and that virtually 90% of some Presbyteries took an exception to the recreation clause.
During debates about intinction 3 years ago, arguments appealing to the Regulative Principle of Worship and Liberty of Conscience to prohibit the practice of intenction were summed up as "Pharisaical" during a floor speech.
I could go on. I love my Church and there are many good men in it. I'm even friends with those whom I disagree but the fact of the matter is there is a slow slide away from the reasons that the PCA was founded.
We recently had an Overture (defeated thankfully) arguing that we need to strike the language of "recreation" from the Confessional language on the 4th Commandment. Arguments on Overtures committee amounted to the idea that the exception was pretty much perfunctory and that virtually 90% of some Presbyteries took an exception to the recreation clause.
During debates about intinction 3 years ago, arguments appealing to the Regulative Principle of Worship and Liberty of Conscience to prohibit the practice of intenction were summed up as "Pharisaical" during a floor speech.
I could go on. I love my Church and there are many good men in it. I'm even friends with those whom I disagree but the fact of the matter is there is a slow slide away from the reasons that the PCA was founded.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I agree completely. What would be better (but I can't see even being seriously proposed) would be a general re-alignment, with about 15-20% of the PCA going to the EPC, 5 or 10% to the OPC, a few to the ARP (those that want deaconesses but are otherwise conservative), with the PCA picking up a few from each of the other denominations. That would leave the PCA as a more unified, but clearly moderate body.
Clark-Tillian
Puritan Board Freshman
Hope dies slowly, but I do not see it happening anytime in the near, or even semi-distant, future.
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
I thought the former Southern Presbyterian churches that joined later PCA are more conservative, than the PCA churches in the Northwest(newly founded. or later joined) and the former Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod congregations that joined past 1983. Right?
Not a chance. The PCA is untied from adherence to the Westminster Standards to an extent the OPC would not accept (as of now at least).
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Fairly simple process to leave. See BCO 25-11, Basically have a congregational meeting and vote, and follow any applicable provisions of state law.
Up to the receiving body as to what requirements they put on. Generally, they will want to re-examine the officers, may have some denomination specific training, and the receiving presbytery would likely need to approve receiving the church.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
'Conservative' means different things to different folks.
There was a range in the original churches from reformed to evangelical - some of the problems today can be traced to the need at the time to accommodate a range of views. It was probably a mistake to put the denominational headquarters in Atlanta.
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
My friend told me that the Evangelical Synod tempered its Reformed theology to a broader evangelical stance, to be successful in evangelism, and after the Joining and receiving the "new" PCA inherited much from this. Is this tru?
Yes; the RPCES was New School; the PCA at least was viewed by some as continuing Old School with the issue being strictness of adherence to the Westminster Standards. The tension over subscription to doctrinal standards was settled over the sizable minority's objections when good faith subscription passed in I think 2002 or 2003.
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
The PCA bought the former headquarters Southern Presbyterian.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
I didn't recall the PCUS offices as being in the Executive Park development (I-85 and and Druid Hills?). The office park was pretty new when the PCA started, so they couldn't have been there long.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Thank you Edward. Even though the official process would be simple what Chris said I see to be sadly very real, and would make the that part of the process impossible for many churches here in Central Florida. I also realize it is not the laity but the leadership that has allowed this to grow into a "crisis".
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
The OPC and the PCA have never been in talks for organic union. What was on the table, and failed in the PCA then the OPC, was the process of the PCA inviting the OPC to join and be received. It was not a union in view but a sort of absorption. Neither denomination is interested in that today and organic union is quite unlikely at this point.
BTW, I was in central Florida last weekend for a conference on evangelism and apologetics at New Life PCA in Mineola. Greetings Central Floridians! We had some folks from neighboring OP and PCA churches and a wonderful time of learning and fellowship. Didn't meet any PBers, however. Maybe next time.
Peace,
Alan
BTW, I was in central Florida last weekend for a conference on evangelism and apologetics at New Life PCA in Mineola. Greetings Central Floridians! We had some folks from neighboring OP and PCA churches and a wonderful time of learning and fellowship. Didn't meet any PBers, however. Maybe next time.
Peace,
Alan
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Well next time announce here if you are coming back to the lightning and mosquito capitol of the world. It would be really nice to meet you.
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
Well next time announce here if you are coming back to the lightning and mosquito capitol of the world. It would be really nice to meet you.
I can tell you first hand: You would not be disappointed. Dr. Strange is a warm, friendly man, a fantastic teacher, and a faithful minister of the Gospel.
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Wayne
Tempus faciendi, Domine.
At its formation, the PCA had no central offices, and the agency offices were scattered around the South. An office building at 1852 Century Place was purchased circa 1985 and was used up until circa 2002, when property at 1600-1700 North Brown Road was purchased and two buildings erected. The property does have room for yet another building, when needed.
The two PCA entities that remain outside of the Atlanta area are of course Covenant College and Covenant Seminary, though these are by nature different from the other agencies.
The PCA Historical Center [PCAHC] does not have agency status but rather is a ministry of the Stated Clerks Office, and was established in January of 1985, while there still was no central office location. Dr. Will Barker, president of Covenant Seminary at the time, offered free space for the Archives. The Joining & Receiving was in 1982 and the RPCES archives were already located there on Seminary property, so it made a lot of sense to put the new Archives there.
So the PCAHC has been here in St. Louis ever since. As we are approaching capacity in the present facility, the need of a move becomes mandatory, and there could be real benefit in being near the central offices. On the other hand, being in the center of the nation has its own advantages, what with the PCA increasingly shifting from being a Southern denomination to more of a national denomination (currently about 59 or 58% weighted in the South and 41 or 42% elsewhere).
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
Wayne
I just mentioned the southern origin of the PCA. You have promised my the list of OPC churches that transitioned to the PCA. Please send me the list Thanks.
I just mentioned the southern origin of the PCA. You have promised my the list of OPC churches that transitioned to the PCA. Please send me the list Thanks.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Thanks. I was one exit off and on the wrong side of I-85. I still can't recall where the PCUS headquarters were. I was thinking more down toward Decatur, but they might have been that far north.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
Thanks, Earl. The pastor of the PCA down there (John Bopp) announced it to the neighboring churches (what they do with it, of course, is their business). I leave it up to churches to announce such (it's not the ADS show but the ministry of that local church of which I am serving). I will try to give a PM to you, however, when I am back down that way (since you asked!).
Peace,
Alan
Peace,
Alan
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
PCA merger with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church?
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
I don't think that there are any American Presbyterian church unions seriously viable at this point.
Andrew, is that simply a bit of a despairing remark on your behalf? I assume so. I would agree that a segment of the PCA might have such a sentiment (union with the EPC). I suppose the question is how significant a segment. I would ask your opinion on that but that might derail the thread and properly belong elsewhere. I would especially be interested to know what Wayne would think of that, but, again, probably a different post.
Peace,
Alan
Andrew, is that simply a bit of a despairing remark on your behalf? I assume so. I would agree that a segment of the PCA might have such a sentiment (union with the EPC). I suppose the question is how significant a segment. I would ask your opinion on that but that might derail the thread and properly belong elsewhere. I would especially be interested to know what Wayne would think of that, but, again, probably a different post.
Peace,
Alan
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
I've been in the OPC for nearly 20 years (since 1996) and I wouldn't be anywhere else. I've talked to numerous OPCers over the years who've said that the OPC really dodged a bullet when the attempts at Joining and Receiving failed. And you're right: it would not have been a matter of organic union. It would have been a case of the PCA "eating" the OPC, per the PCA's obsession with bigness.
Alan D. Strange
Puritan Board Senior
For my part, I am thankful for the good relationship that we have with the PCA.
As a long-time member of the Board of Trustees of Great Commission Publications (GCP), and serving currently as president, I am thankful for that relationship and the Christ-centered publications that GCP, as a joint ministry of the OPC and PCA, produces for use in our and other churches.
Peace,
Alan
As a long-time member of the Board of Trustees of Great Commission Publications (GCP), and serving currently as president, I am thankful for that relationship and the Christ-centered publications that GCP, as a joint ministry of the OPC and PCA, produces for use in our and other churches.
Peace,
Alan
Calvinbeza
Puritan Board Freshman
Do you think that is an option? ARP and PCA are much similar. The EPC is semi-Arminian and charismatic
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