Why Can't God Just Forgive Me?

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heartoflesh

Puritan Board Junior
My basic question is, how would you explain to your son or daughter the neccesity of subsitutionary atonement? How do you answer when they ask "why can't God just forgive me if he wants to forgive me?", "why does he need blood", etc.

Can you articulate it without using big words?
 
Crime deserves punishment.

God is infinitely glorious. We have an infinite obligation to honor and obey Him. Sin therefore is an breach of infinite duty which is an infinite evil. God infinitely hates it. Fitingly, God will express this hatred in infinite wrath, against the sinner or a surety.
 
Originally posted by Peter
Crime deserves punishment.

God is infinitely glorious. We have an infinite obligation to honor and obey Him. Sin therefore is an breach of infinite duty which is an infinite evil. God infinitely hates it. Fitingly, God will express this hatred in infinite wrath, against the sinner or a surety.

I should qualify my scenario: Your six year old son or daughter......or...... a member of an emergent church. :D
 
hey, i didnt use any big words. though infinity is an infinitely big concept. :) An analogy or illustration usually helps me when I have difficulty understand something.

[Edited on 12-26-2005 by Peter]
 
God is perfect and can't allow imperfection without correction. Our imperfection needs something that will make something perfect again. Sin has to be punished or God is not perfect. So He punished Jesus who didn't deserve punishment so we could be made perfect in His sight again.

Did I do any better?
 
From the WSC:

Q4: What is God?
A4: God is a Spirit,[1] infinite,[2] eternal,[3] and unchangeable,[4] in his being,[5] wisdom,[6] power,[7] holiness,[8] justice, goodness, and truth.[9]

1. John 4:24
2. Job 11:7
3. Psa. 90:2
4. James 1:17
5. Exod. 3:14
6. Psa. 147:5
7. Rev. 4:8
8. Rev. 15:4
9. Exod. 34:6

From the WLC:

Q152: What doth every sin deserve at the hands of God?
A152: Every sin, even the least, being against the sovereignty,[1] goodness,[2] and holiness of God,[3] and against his righteous law,[4] deserveth his wrath and curse,[5] both in this life,[6] and that which is to come;[7] and cannot be expiated but by the blood of Christ.[8]

1. James 2:10-11
2. Exod. 20:1-2
3. Hab. 1:13; Lev. 10:3; 11:44-45
4. I John 3:4; Rom. 7:12
5. Eph. 5:6; Gal. 3:10
6. Lam. 3:39; Deut. 28:15-68
7. Matt. 25:41
8. Heb. 9:22; I Peter 1:18-19

Why Did Jesus Have to Die For Our Sins?

Matthew Henry on Psalm 85.10:

Ps. 85.10: Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

(3.) Of the harmony of the divine attributes in the Messiah's undertaking. In him who is both our salvation and our glory mercy and truth have met together; God's mercy and truth, and his righteousness and peace, have kissed each other; that is, the great affair of our salvation is so well contrived, so well concerted, that God may have mercy upon poor sinners, and be at peace with them, without any wrong to his truth and righteousness. He is true to the threatening, and just in his government, and yet pardons sinners and takes them into covenant with himself. Christ, as Mediator, brings heaven and earth together again, which sin had set at variance; through him truth springs out of the earth, that truth which God desires in the inward part, and then righteousness looks down from heaven; for God is just, and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus.

Matthew Henry on Rom. 3.26:

Rom. 3.26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Secondly, In the pardon upon that propitiation; so it follows, by way of explication: That he might be just, and the justifier of him that believeth. Mercy and truth are so met together, righteousness and peace have so kissed each other, that it is now become not only an act of grace and mercy, but an act of righteousness, in God, to pardon the sins of penitent believers, having accepted the satisfaction that Christ by dying made to his justice for them. It would not comport with his justice to demand the debt of the principal when the surety has paid it and he has accepted that payment in full satisfaction. See 1 John i. 9. He is just, that is, faithful to his word.
 
If God simply forgives sin, then he gives something up--he sacrifices some justice at the expense of mercy. So he is less than perfectly just. He's imperfectly just, under this supposition. Do we want a God like this? If he is imperfectly just in this way, perhaps he is imperfectly just in other ways as well...

We ought to forgive, because we have been forgiven. God has no equal requirement to forgive or show mercy. He is not obligated to show mercy. On the other hand, justice or righteousness is a quality that is essential to his holy nature. It this sense, it is his obligation to do justice, or he ceases being who he is. As Scripture states: "He cannot deny himself."

It is just as necessary (if he wills it) that he express himself as fully in areas of "discretion" (such as mercy) as he expresses himself in areas of essence. But this he will not do by doing violence to himself. Mercy (forgiveness) presupposes the more basic requirement to do justice.

Maybe the easiest way to reach a 6-year old on this subject is to ask him what is more important--that Daddy is "fair" or that Daddy "forgives". Every time Johnny steals a cookie he wants Daddy to forgive him, so Daddy agrees and starts forgiving Johnny every time he steals a cookie. (This now happens frequently, since Johnny can now get a cookie with impunity.) At the same time Daddy starts "forgiving" Billy every time he hits Johnny. Should Daddy forgive Billy for hitting Johnny? Johnny starts complaining, but Daddy reminds him that he has to be fair to Billy, and forgive him every time since Johnny gets forgiven every time. Billy doesn't seem to want to steal cookies, but he does want to smack his brother around. Johnny isn't prepared to accept this argument. "I WANT JUSTICE!" he screams. OK, Johnny, Billy will get justice, but so will you for stealing allthose cookies.

That justice is more essential than mercy is also evident from its subjects. Everyone begins from the same standpoint--guilty, under judgment. Not everyone is shown mercy; some find mercy. So, in fact (though not in degree) some pass from judgment to mercy, experiencing both realities. The reprobate get no blessing from the mercy they contract in this life (so yes they are exposed to mercy) but instead remain forever under judgment, and never truly experience mercy. They are like persons without tastebuds who nonetheless eats for their belly, even an occasional bowl of icecream that goes unappreciated.
 
Thank you for all your responses, and I appreciate the analogy, Bruce.

This is obviously a subject which can't be grasped without a basic understanding of God's holiness, wrath and justice.
 
Originally posted by Contra_Mundum
If God simply forgives sin, then he gives something up--he sacrifices some justice at the expense of mercy. So he is less than perfectly just. He's imperfectly just, under this supposition. Do we want a God like this? If he is imperfectly just in this way, perhaps he is imperfectly just in other ways as well...

We ought to forgive, because we have been forgiven. God has no equal requirement to forgive or show mercy. He is not obligated to show mercy. On the other hand, justice or righteousness is a quality that is essential to his holy nature. It this sense, it is his obligation to do justice, or he ceases being who he is. As Scripture states: "He cannot deny himself."

It is just as necessary (if he wills it) that he express himself as fully in areas of "discretion" (such as mercy) as he expresses himself in areas of essence. But this he will not do by doing violence to himself. Mercy (forgiveness) presupposes the more basic requirement to do justice.

Maybe the easiest way to reach a 6-year old on this subject is to ask him what is more important--that Daddy is "fair" or that Daddy "forgives". Every time Johnny steals a cookie he wants Daddy to forgive him, so Daddy agrees and starts forgiving Johnny every time he steals a cookie. (This now happens frequently, since Johnny can now get a cookie with impunity.) At the same time Daddy starts "forgiving" Billy every time he hits Johnny. Should Daddy forgive Billy for hitting Johnny? Johnny starts complaining, but Daddy reminds him that he has to be fair to Billy, and forgive him every time since Johnny gets forgiven every time. Billy doesn't seem to want to steal cookies, but he does want to smack his brother around. Johnny isn't prepared to accept this argument. "I WANT JUSTICE!" he screams. OK, Johnny, Billy will get justice, but so will you for stealing allthose cookies.

That justice is more essential than mercy is also evident from its subjects. Everyone begins from the same standpoint--guilty, under judgment. Not everyone is shown mercy; some find mercy. So, in fact (though not in degree) some pass from judgment to mercy, experiencing both realities. The reprobate get no blessing from the mercy they contract in this life (so yes they are exposed to mercy) but instead remain forever under judgment, and never truly experience mercy. They are like persons without tastebuds who nonetheless eats for their belly, even an occasional bowl of icecream that goes unappreciated.

Ditto. You should be the new James Dobson. I like your explanation.
 
I hear the kids always say, "THAT'S NOT FAIR!"

So I say to them God is always fair. Sin must be punished fairly are God wouldn't be fair. Jesus willingly took my 'time out' so that I would be thankful to Jesus because He loves me so much He would do that for me and His Father could always be fair.
 
Originally posted by Rick Larson "why does he need blood", etc.

Can you articulate it without using big words?

Okay, guys, this isn't a little Unitarian, just a 6-year old. Tell him that every time he bleeds, a little "life" comes out, not enough to hurt anything, unless it never stopped. So the blood of the sacrifice stands for its life, since it died. Since the wages of sin is death, something, or better someone, has to die for our sin; either we die physically and spiritually, or someone else takes our death. Of course, Jesus being God, He couldn't actually spiritually die, but He took God's justice against sin in our place, and He literally died physically, and His blood was shed like the animal sacrifices, His life was poured out.
(My atonement theory is a little inaccurate in spots, I think.)
 
Originally posted by Rick Larson
I should qualify my scenario: Your six year old son or daughter......or...... a member of an emergent church. :D

I wouldn't recommend John Murray's book in that case. I find most puritans an easier read than Murray. :D
 
I like Bruce's analogy. Bruce - you are tremendously gifted. A mark of real understanding is the ability to explain something in the simplest of terms.

I'm going to try too:

God created us to obey Him. God is perfect. God is good. God demands that disobedience must be punished. If He did not punish He would not be good. Our sin deserves death. God must punish with death or He would not be good. Because we sin and disobey, God was angry with us and we would have been punished for every sin except for Jesus. Jesus obeyed. Jesus was a man but He was also God. Even though Jesus never disobeyed, God punished Jesus for our sins. We have not been punished for our sins because Jesus died in our place. It's like Jesus received a spanking so hard and so painful that it killed Him so God would never have to spank us forever. Because Jesus was punished for us then God is no longer angry at us. He was punished for every sin we ever commit on the Cross.

A child might ask why he is still spanked or sent to his room when he disobeys. Why am I punished?

Daddy does not punish you. Daddy disciplines you. Jesus paid for your sin. Jesus received your forever punishment from God. Daddy disciplines you. Daddy corrects you so you can be reminded of how bad sin is. Daddy loves you so he helps you remember how painful sin is. Daddy loves you and he wants you to grow up to love and glorify God.
 
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