N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Today I was doing some research and got stuck on the number of Reformed Presbyterian Churches that have left major US and Canadian cities.
Here are some of my thoughts.
Here are some of my thoughts.
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Nathan, I believe you have asked a very important question. One that does not have very nice answers. White flight, the unwillingness/inability of Reformed churches to reach out to immigrants and changing ethnic populations, being a church of the middle class, I think all these are reasons why we don't find Reformed and/or Presbyterian churches in the downtown areas of our major cities anymore.
Also, thanks for posting the Google StreetView links. That is a great tour!
Our church is in the city.
Add to this the fact that part of the Communist Manifesto was the make the world a huge city (no distinction between rural and urban areas), large cities generally have an overflow of wickedness and anti-christianity, and despise the Word. I don't think that this must be the case, I am simply describing how I perceive things to be.
The net result of this social environment is that most churches in big cities are heavily influenced by their local culture rather than vice versa.
Cheers,
Adam
The net result of this social environment is that most churches in big cities are heavily influenced by their local culture rather than vice versa.
Cheers,
Adam
Adam, I am not sure I believe this to be the case any more than it is the case for small towns, rural areas, and country churches. We are called to preach Christ in our context, and for some, that is the city- for others it is the country side. I imagine that many people believe that where they are living is one of the greatest places to have a Christian influence.
Two extremes for example:
RC Sproul, Jr. thinks that there is no better place to raise a Reformed family than in the country, raising your own eggs and beef, making your own bread, etc. He argues that is how God intended it to be.
Tim Kellar thinks that big cities are where God's blessing is. He believes that the city was the intention of the cultural mandate and that cities actually reflect heaven itself- the New Jerusalem is a city- it is not the New Eden!
Interesting... the point being- since there are few conservative Reformed churches in the cities, it is hard to tell how influenced they would or would not be to their context. The PCUSA is usually just as liberal in downtown Detroit or Grand Rapids as they are in the happy and white suburbs. That, I guess is my point on that.
So... how can we get back into the cities?
-----Added 12/19/2008 at 03:17:37 EST-----
Our church is in the city.
That is great Jessica. That has been my vision for First RP here in Grand Rapids, but there are not too many on board. We are suburbanites, I am afraid.
The congregation in Los Angeles which I will begin pastoring next month is in the city. I am looking forward to urban ministry.
I'm not sure of the demographics here we are speaking of.
Redeemer Presbyterian in New York City is a very large church, 5 services Lord's day and has several church plants in the immediate area. There are several inner city churches in the nongeographical Korean presbytery in the PCA and also in another denomination. Philadelphia area has at least 17 PCA churches, many more if you include the greater metro area.
As far as church attendance generally, NYC had a big upswing in churches and church attendance in the 80's and 90's which, curiously, corresponded with declining crime rates, urban blight, and an upswing in property values and new development.
wturri78's
Puritanboard Freshman
Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
We are struggling to have a church in the city, but most of us live in the suburbs and commute in. What we find in the middle of our city is not a traditional "hood", that's in the NE section; in the city are old pensioners and street people and their dogs. We are next to a large campus, which brings us students, but they only stay 3-4 years and leave.
And a church plant in Washington, D.C., about 1.5 miles from the president's house.
Check out the Google map to see where it is.
We are struggling to have a church in the city, but most of us live in the suburbs and commute in. What we find in the middle of our city is not a traditional "hood", that's in the NE section; in the city are old pensioners and street people and their dogs. We are next to a large campus, which brings us students, but they only stay 3-4 years and leave.
Thanks Meg. What are ministries that you all have tried. (Any that worked? Any that did NOT work?)
wturri78's
Puritanboard Freshman
Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
Maybe I'm not quite seeing the same things or am a bit too optimistic.
I see reformed theology as being forward, culturally engaging, and tilting toward cultural transformation. Every aspect of man's knowledge is but the understanding of God's world. That's why one can be reformed and be a butcher, baker or candlestick maker...or a nuclear physicist...or a professional ballet dancer. It's one of the strenghts as I see it in reformed theology.
While we can't make the case by one church in NYC alone, I can tell you it seems to me quite a varied group of people being engaged. For example, it seemed that almost a third of the people were "Asian" of one sort or another when I have visited. Also, a lot of young professionals. I don't see this as signs of "dying out" at all.
What is dying out are the mainline denominations that have given themselves over to modernism. Granted, many are not seeking out biblical and reformed alternatives, many are seeking a pop culture "good time" centered on self; but certainly not all.
What's new and fresh and exciting about teaching the full counsel of reformed theology is that while it is not new, it seems that way. When it is faithfully taught and applied because it has been rare in this generation, it is actually increasing- even in the larger cities. Not dominant, but the trend is up now it seems.
Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
Does this then validate/answer Pastor Eshelman's OP? I think most Reformed churches are indeed steeped in 'confessional' language and have a distinct 16th century feel to them. Especially a denomination like the RP (insofar as I know it). And, does this then mean that a BR church will work in the inner city but a TR church will die for lack of 'relevance'?
I can't speak for other cities, but Kansas City actually has quite a large number of Reformed churches, and even has a city-wide council of Reformed churches of many denominations that worship, play and evangelize together.
Can it be said that there is a connection between biblical Christianity and covenant and land? Does not raw earth, given as an inheritance from the Lord to families/clans, have an influence upon appreciation for God's promises? And within a dense city, is land a generous commodity? Nay, it is not- but the blessings of His inheritance can be found in plenty within suburbia and beyond.
Theognome
Given the quite different demographic usually found in cities, I can only think we'd seem extremely stand-offish with our plain hymns, doctrinal preaching, and 16th century confessional language. I don't think a church should ever bend to the whims of the culture, but there's no reason to insist that a particular and narrowly defined style of music and language must necessarily surround the gospel. Much of the language/music/writing of the Presbyterian heritage is what it is based on having been developed in a very English context (Westminster ain't in China!), and I suspect it could have looked and sounded quite different had it been born and raised in a different culture.
Does this then validate/answer Pastor Eshelman's OP? I think most Reformed churches are indeed steeped in 'confessional' language and have a distinct 16th century feel to them. Especially a denomination like the RP (insofar as I know it). And, does this then mean that a BR church will work in the inner city but a TR church will die for lack of 'relevance'?
Actually, the Koreans seemed to find Presbyterianism appealing, and Presbyterians did a lot of mission in the Middle East in the 19th Century. I think we can contextualize to some extent, but the Gospel is the Gospel, and confessions and psalms can be translated. Actually, the Gospel started in a 1st Century Middle Eastern context and the English ended up liking it pretty well for a while.
Thanks Nathan for raising this. This is one of my great concerns.
I come from a city where the greater metropolitan area has about 5-6 million people (about 1/3 the population of Canada lives in southern and south-western Ontario within 4-5 hours of the city - 10 million in Southern Ontario). Our city is now considered the most multicultural city in the world and yet despite its location in the Western world it is very underserviced in terms of churches, particularly conservative Reformed churches. It is very hard to recommend good churches. I commend the PCA for planting here (although I have not yet met their pastor) and I encourage the OPC (who have a small unilingual Portugese work outside the city), the RPCNA (which closed its only work here recently), the URC (which also has a small work), the ARP (which has a good Canadian presbytery but nothing near the city) and any other faithful confessional group to plant here.
It is my prayer that the Lord will use us despite some of our challenges (most of our congregation commutes from long distances and we are small) to reach the city. We rent the basement of a liberal church and are located just off the main street in the heart of the city, though none of us can afford to live in the neighbourhood (homes range around $800,000 to 1.2 million). We make do at the moment with living near the highway on the outskirts of the city. I travel more to visit, and I try to keep some "office hours" at a local coffee shop in the church's neighbourhood once a week to meet locals and evangelize. It is hard to have young children with not many peers for them to grow up with and certainly not many Christian influences, but this is not really different than other mission fields and it's even better than many. I would love to have the privilege to do what Mark Dever and Capitol Hill Baptist Church (9 Marks) have done in their Washington DC neighbourhood. They had a few advantages (they owned their building and had a larger base and a very gifted preacher), but the Lord has richly blessed and grown their city ministry. Many of the elders of the church now live on the same street as the church and they are very active in their city community and the Lord has blessed their growth. I'm praying the Lord will help us to establish a robust confessional Reformed presence in the city for His glory. Dever speaks about what they did in DC in a church planting seminar.
I know we're not alone in our city, or in Canada - I recently tried to find a good confessional Reformed Baptist/Presbyterian church in Chicago and found similar challenges. May the Lord have mercy and send more preachers and produce more converts by His Spirit that we may extend the Gospel for His name's sake into all the cities of the world.